Worse than the 90s?

Not this decade of course as we actually won them. But is the current England team worse than the teams of the 90s?

Other than one series in Australia we at least managed to win a test every series, but I just can't see this current team being able to manage it. At least in the 90s we usually had one test class bowler who could win us matches and one batsmen who could block out situations such as this (Atherton and Gough spring to mind).

Considering that this Australian side is in most people's view inferior to the team of 2006/7 and even 2005 and also inferior to the Australian team of the 90s, yet the gulf in class seems to be even bigger, is the England team of 2009 worse than the England team of the 90s?

I may be over-reacting, I admit....

You can't say that yet.

The team of the 90's changed every five minutes, so it's hard to say what exactly we are comparing with. Other than Edgbaston 1997 we only ever won dead rubbers in Ashes series, so you can't give them a lot of credit for that.

In terms of batting averages the current side is clearly better, but then pitches were worse and bowling attacks better in the 90s. I think a few of the players of that era would have fared much better in terms of statistics in the modern day game. Probably not a great deal to choose overall.

Zat wrote:You can't say that yet.

Yeah, like I said I'm probably over-reacting. I just can't see any hope of even winning a test with the gap in class that is apparent.

vilkrang wrote:

Zat wrote:You can't say that yet.

Yeah, like I said I'm probably over-reacting. I just can't see any hope of even winning a test with the gap in class that is apparent.

Wait till after this match is finished.

90s England:

Atherton
Butcher
Smith
Hussain
Thorpe
Stewart +
Cork
Fraser
Gough
Caddick
Tufnell

2000s England:

Trescothick
Strauss
Vaughan
Pietersen
Thorpe
Prior +
Flintoff
Giles
Harmison
Hoggard
Jones

That's virtually 90s v 2005. Still, that first team certainly wouldn't have been bad if you had all of them at their peak (and with Gooch of 1990 in place of Butcher perhaps?) Bit of a long tail and needing the ball to swing maybe...

It's hard to compile a team from an entire decade. Especially the 90s as England went through so many players it was a struggle to keep up.

The '99 side that hit rock bottom after losing at home to NZ featured just two players (Atherton and Ramprakash) that played in the '91 side that drew 2-2 at home with the Windies.

So which players are "so 90s"?

We have a workmanlike batting line up at the moment with 1 world class player in it.

And we're struggling with the ball when Jimmy, our leader has a bowling average of 34.

Let's not write the lads off after 1 test though, some of the suggestions for change have been utterly mad.

FFS 82% of people on the BBC want Harmison recalled. This is 'first slip' Harmison. Averaged 40 in the last 4 years Harmison. FFS

If you've ever read the Beeb message boards (606, is it?) you'll know that pretty much everyone who frequents the site is a cabbage.

Ponty Manesar and Jimmikins proved Vilks wrong then...

Dello wrote:It's hard to compile a team from an entire decade. Especially the 90s as England went through so many players it was a struggle to keep up.

The '99 side that hit rock bottom after losing at home to NZ featured just two players (Atherton and Ramprakash) that played in the '91 side that drew 2-2 at home with the Windies.

So which players are "so 90s"?

Thought you were doing a "best of the 90s" rather than a "typical" side of that decade.

The XI with most caps in that decade was: Stewart, Atherton, Thorpe, Hick, Smith, Russell, Gooch, Hussain, Fraser, Tufnell, Malcolm. Obviously there's too many batsmen in that, so you'd replace Hussain (who really seems to belong in the '00s anyway) with the next bowler in line who is Gough. So I'd say:

Gooch
Atherton*
Stewart
Hick
Smith
Thorpe
Russell+
Gough
Fraser
Tufnell
Malcolm

was our "average" 90s line-up.

And the equivalent for this decade: In order of caps since 2000 you have Vaughan, Trescothick, Flintoff, Hoggard, Strauss, Harmison, Giles, Pietersen, Hussain, Collingwood, Bell. Of course that XI doesn't contain a keeper - perhaps surprisingly Stewart made more appearances than any other this decade despite retiring in 2003! Also we've typically played a four seamer attack including Flintoff, so the next paceman in line is Anderson (with Colly and Bell therefore dropping out). So the typical '00s team:

Strauss
Trescothick
Vaughan*
Hussain
Pietersen
Stewart+
Flintoff
Giles
Hoggard
Anderson
Harmison

Well played beams, you've given it more thought than I did.

To be honest, I don't think there's much between the sides.

The difference being that most of the '00s side peaked at the same time, briefly producing some much better results!

And just out of interest while I've got the Statsguru open here's the average 80s team - the top 11 in terms of caps actually produces a reasonably balanced team:

Gooch
Tavare
Gower*
Gatting
Lamb
Botham
Taylor+
Emburey
Edmonds
Dilley
Willis

The 90s side had a much more random attack. Gough and Fraser had dodgy fitness records, Dev had a dodgy radar and Tuffers' performances were dependent on how many dodgy cigarettes he'd smoked the night before.

vilkrang wrote:At least in the 90s we usually had one test class bowler who could win us matches and one batsmen who could block out situations such as this (Atherton and Gough spring to mind).

Yeah, we usually had one of Gough, Caddick and Fraser, at least. All those blokes would walk into the current team/

Rob I wrote:

vilkrang wrote:At least in the 90s we usually had one test class bowler who could win us matches and one batsmen who could block out situations such as this (Atherton and Gough spring to mind).

Yeah, we usually had one of Gough, Caddick and Fraser, at least. All those blokes would walk into the current team/

Controversial. Caddick didn't live up to his billing until Hussain took over the captaincy in 99.

Stewart refused to have him in his side as he thought he was a waste of space and "difficult".

So I wouldn't class Caddy as a 90s stalwart. He and Gough were brilliant in the early 2000s, though.

Yes, that WI series in 2000 was one of only two occasions I can remember when an England pace quartet really clicked all together - Gough, Caddick, Cork and White on that occasion. The other one's fairly obvious.

The title seemed to promise a good old moan about music.

I am dismayed it's just more about the farqin cricket.