KP V Ponting

Maybe he could have stepped up and batted at 4 when he was needed, but he preferred to stay at 5 and bat with the tail . . .

He really stood up.

Im pretty sure I didnt say that.

Henry wrote:

Maybe he could have stepped up and batted at 4 when he was needed, but he preferred to stay at 5 and bat with the tail . . .

He really stood up.

Im pretty sure I didnt say that.

So that means that I blame him totally for the loss? You are an idiot.

You made the point that KP always stands up. I've shown instances where he hasn't.

As usual you change the focus of the argument each time you are outdone. Remember this all started with you bagging Punter because his stats weren't as good as KP's. Then stats didn't matter . . . it's was all about KP being the only one to stand up when England needed him. Now we see that KP hasn't always stood up, it's you trying to obfuscate the argument.

As I said from the beginning, KP is very good, but he isn't up to Ponting's standard yet. I doubt he ever will be, but that's for the future to show.

Huh, when did I say Ponting's stats werent as good as KP's?

In the CONTEXT of the last Ashes series, KP stood up. More than any other England batsman did. He was the leading run scorer and had the highest average. He stood up. If there had been 5 other kp's in the English batting lineup, im pretty sure it wouldnt have been a 5-0 loss.

Henry wrote:Pietersen has a better record than Ponting in ODI's anyway- Better strike rate, and a better average. And again, a lot of his ODI runs have been made against Australia.

Here . . .

ODI's dont matter much when deciding the worlds best batsman. Stats were being thrown around left right and centre so I thought id mention that KP's record in that form of the game was superior. But even if it wasnt, id still feel the same way.

Henry wrote:ODI's dont matter much when deciding the worlds best batsman. Stats were being thrown around left right and centre so I thought id mention that KP's record in that form of the game was superior. But even if it wasnt, id still feel the same way.

So why did you bring it up to begin with? To take a shot at Punter. Then you got blown away by the test stats . . . it's all going around in circles, Henry, because you want acknowledge points aginst you. You just keep shifting the focus of the argument.

So you werent doing the same thing when suggesting that KP was a wimp for batting at 5, or that his departure from Aus meant England played better?

Aye Please Don't Yell.... totally. For instance, he face the might of Ambrose all of 4 times and Walsh 8 times. Averaged mid-30s.... and that was when they weren't at their peak. He faced a defunct Waqar 3 times, plus once when he was good. Faced Akram 3 times. Averaged mid-40s, 73 overall if you want to include a zimmerframed Waqar. Faced a good Pollock/Donald combo 5 times, averaged 40. So basically he either didn't do too great against the better bowlers in their pomp or he bullied them on the wane. Great argument.

**disclaimer**

This, in no way, endorses the KP > RTP debate.

Henry wrote:So you werent doing the same thing when suggesting that KP was a wimp for batting at 5, or that his departure from Aus meant England played better?

Again, Henry, I said that England played better after KP left to show that other players do step up. Just as KP not stepping up to bat at 4 showed he maybe wasn't the lone ranger that you were suggesting.

In both cases I was responding to your attempts at shifting the argument. Go back and have a farkin read.

They lost all those games . . . and getting bowled around his legs on the last morning in Adelaide opened the door to the carnage that followed. He got hit in the ribs by McGrath whilst trying to play the hero in an ODI and went home . . . then England started doing well . .

Hmm. To me that sounds like you're coming up with anything you can to suggest that KP is a self centred show pony who doesnt care about the rest of the team.

Henry wrote:

They lost all those games . . . and getting bowled around his legs on the last morning in Adelaide opened the door to the carnage that followed. He got hit in the ribs by McGrath whilst trying to play the hero in an ODI and went home . . . then England started doing well . .

Hmm. To me that sounds like you're coming up with anything you can to suggest that KP is a self centred show pony who doesnt care about the rest of the team.

Nice editing. Again, look at the hero-worship in your post to which I was responding . . . I suggest that KP wasn't the only man to stand up for England nor is he the infallible batting god that would like us to believe. England can win without him, and many of the instances you take to show his value, still resulted in losses for his team.

Batfink Begins wrote:Aye Please Don't Yell.... totally. For instance, he face the might of Ambrose all of 4 times and Walsh 8 times. Averaged mid-30s.... and that was when they weren't at their peak. He faced a defunct Waqar 3 times, plus once when he was good. Faced Akram 3 times. Averaged mid-40s, 73 overall if you want to include a zimmerframed Waqar. Faced a good Pollock/Donald combo 5 times, averaged 40. So basically he either didn't do too great against the better bowlers in their pomp or he bullied them on the wane. Great argument.

Warne and McGrath were not at their peak either

And Ponting has dominated Murali on numerous occasions.

PearlJ wrote:

Batfink Begins wrote:Aye Please Don't Yell.... totally. For instance, he face the might of Ambrose all of 4 times and Walsh 8 times. Averaged mid-30s.... and that was when they weren't at their peak. He faced a defunct Waqar 3 times, plus once when he was good. Faced Akram 3 times. Averaged mid-40s, 73 overall if you want to include a zimmerframed Waqar. Faced a good Pollock/Donald combo 5 times, averaged 40. So basically he either didn't do too great against the better bowlers in their pomp or he bullied them on the wane. Great argument.

Warne and McGrath were not at their peak either

2005 was Warne's best series against England.

vilkrang wrote:

PearlJ wrote:

Batfink Begins wrote:Aye Please Don't Yell.... totally. For instance, he face the might of Ambrose all of 4 times and Walsh 8 times. Averaged mid-30s.... and that was when they weren't at their peak. He faced a defunct Waqar 3 times, plus once when he was good. Faced Akram 3 times. Averaged mid-40s, 73 overall if you want to include a zimmerframed Waqar. Faced a good Pollock/Donald combo 5 times, averaged 40. So basically he either didn't do too great against the better bowlers in their pomp or he bullied them on the wane. Great argument.

Warne and McGrath were not at their peak either

2005 was Warne's best series against England.

Probably wasn't his absolute peak though.

Eh? That was a pretty poor comeback after being proven wrong.

2005 was probably Warne's greatest series ever.

This debate is going nowhere. Sook-boy >> KP now. In future, most probably, sook-boy > KP.

End of.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Eh? That was a pretty poor comeback after being proven wrong.

2005 was probably Warne's greatest series ever.

Overall the 2005 was not his best ever season. He averaged 22.... he averaged 18 in 1994 and 2002 IIRC.

The 2005 Ashes was probably Warne's best ever series, all things considered. Even if it didn't take place in his "peak season" he played at a higher level than at any time during his peak season, therefore Warne was at his peak.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:

The 2005 Ashes was probably Warne's best ever series, all things considered. Even if it didn't take place in his "peak season" he played at a higher level than at any time during his peak season, therefore Warne was at his peak.

Bowling wise he has bowled much better, at other times in his career he was totally unplayable same could not be said for that series.

a good series doesnt define a peak.

his pwc/icc/lg rankings peak was 904 pts in 1994. he was on 843 after the ashes 2005 so pretty close to his peak.

http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/bowling/player-display.php?id=1962

ignoring rankings for a sec, warne of the early-mid 90s had more variation - the flipper wasnt there in 2005.

tbh its a silly comparison as dickhed is at his peak now whereas KP has his best years ahead of him.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:

The 2005 Ashes was probably Warne's best ever series, all things considered. Even if it didn't take place in his "peak season" he played at a higher level than at any time during his peak season, therefore Warne was at his peak.

In terms of averages it was his 8th best series (3 Tests or more)

In terms of WPM it was 3rd

Kallis might end up with better stats that all of them but we all know he won't be one of the all time greats.

despite all the apathy kallis gets i think he will be remembered as a great - his stats are too good for him not to.

Well his stats are right up there with the top few but how many of us would rank him say in the top 15 batters of all time?