Re: The Football Thread - 09/10 (II)

[Shoeshine]

Here's another Diaby off-his-feet tackle by the way. Dangerous and reckless. Once again, I don't recall Wenger criticising it in the slightest:

[Shoeshine]

F F S
Let's see what I can glean from all your posts on this particular subject :
Arsenal are "incrediby" unlucky - 3 broken legs in the EPL in 4 seasons (remind me again, only one was a "real" foul) ...
Arsenal commit horrendous tackles -
Shawcross was unlucky ... (this is priceless) ...
And Ramsey incredibly unlucky (subtle difference - one plays for England next week, the other may be f**ked for life!)
Wenger is a qunt because he protests about reckless and horizontal tackling -
The EPL Fair Play league table is a crock of sh*t.

Okay ... I think I get where you're coming from.

Yes, Arsenal are unlucky. And if you think you can get statistical relevance out of three of anything in four years, you're in a dreamworld. It simply doesn't stand up. Why just broken legs? Why not come back to me with a list of all the ruptured ligaments, torn cartilage, snapped achilles injuries and see if the same thing applies. Taking one kind of injury and writing it large is silly.

Wenger is a qunt because he's a hypocrite. There are loads of awful Arsenal tackles, does he say anything? No he doesn't, he "didn't see it".

Shawcross was unlucky because his tackle wasn't that bad, but the outcome was. You see worse constantly. You saw worse this weekend. You seem to subscribe to the outcome is all argument.

I notice you've not even reacted to the various awful Arsenal tackles posted. Are you Wenger in disguise?

[LeFromage]

I think Patrick Barclay speaks quite well about it here:

http://www.skysports.com/video/clips/0,23791,13989,00.html

And a decent article here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1254454/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Now-Aaron-Ramsey--broken-legs-chance.html

Particularly the opening:

It was a familiar speech. ‘There is no way that was a malicious challenge,’ said David Kemp, assistant manager of Stoke City. ‘Ryan isn’t that sort of player. It was probably a new experience for him to get frustrated, that’s why he chased down the ball and made that tackle.

‘There was no malicious intent. It was a genuine attempt. We’ve seen far worse challenges go unpunished. It was just one of those football injuries, one of those incidents that frequently happen in the game. Before long Ryan might be on the end of one himself.’

Over time, only the names change. The quickest of wit will have spotted that Kemp is now Stoke’s chief scout, not assistant to Tony Pulis. His observation was not from Saturday, when Shawcross broke the leg of Aaron Ramsey, but from 2007 when he broke the leg of Francis Jeffers of Sheffield Wednesday with a tackle from behind. Maybe Arsene Wenger is correct not to believe in coincidence.

[Merlin]

Once again, I don't recall Wenger criticising it in the slightest:

Errr ... you wouldn't, if you chose not to hear it or if your recall was selective !
Wenger, for all his bitching, has, when the occasion demanded it, offered unequivocal and public apologies for the behaviour of his players.

Try avoid being selective and blinkered shoey ....

PMSL .. no I am not Wenger in disguise ... and I have made my stance pretty clear in several posts.
Let me repeat it for your benefit ... I really DO NOT GAF who the offending player is - whether Arsenal or lowly Colchester ... the penalty HAS to be stiffer .... a 10 game ban would soon see this horizontal sh*t disappearing from the game.

PS - Have you checked the EPL "Fair Play" League table yet?

[Shoeshine]

I think Patrick Barclay speaks quite well about it here:

http://www.skysports.com/video/clips/0,23791,13989,00.html

And a decent article here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1254454/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Now-Aaron-Ramsey--broken-legs-chance.html

Particularly the opening:

It was a familiar speech. ‘There is no way that was a malicious challenge,’ said David Kemp, assistant manager of Stoke City. ‘Ryan isn’t that sort of player. It was probably a new experience for him to get frustrated, that’s why he chased down the ball and made that tackle.

‘There was no malicious intent. It was a genuine attempt. We’ve seen far worse challenges go unpunished. It was just one of those football injuries, one of those incidents that frequently happen in the game. Before long Ryan might be on the end of one himself.’

Over time, only the names change. The quickest of wit will have spotted that Kemp is now Stoke’s chief scout, not assistant to Tony Pulis. His observation was not from Saturday, when Shawcross broke the leg of Aaron Ramsey, but from 2007 when he broke the leg of Francis Jeffers of Sheffield Wednesday with a tackle from behind. Maybe Arsene Wenger is correct not to believe in coincidence.

Very good. Now shall I post some in reply? Does that get us anywhere? Paul Parker disagrees:


http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/paul-parker/article/19625/

Alan Hansen, Gary Lineker and Alan Shearer all disagreed on MoTD on Saturday. Barclay and Samuel are both excellent journalists and worthy of reading, but it doesn't make them right.

[LeFromage]

I notice you've not even reacted to the various awful Arsenal tackles posted. Are you Wenger in disguise?

Well, you completely misrepresented one of them by posting a picture to suit your case rather than a picture that showed the real incident.

I don't think anyone's claiming Arsenal are angels. Nor that Wenger isn't the most myopic manager in history.

Doesn't change the fact that another Arsenal player is lying in hospital with his career in the balance as the direct result of a poor tackle against a side who, in the build up, had quite openly stated their intent to play a physical, hard-hitting game against them as "everyone knows they don't like it".

Why wouldn't he be somewhat miffed at the outcome and drawing some kind of correlation?

[Shoeshine]

Once again, I don't recall Wenger criticising it in the slightest:

Errr ... you wouldn't, if you chose not to hear it or if your recall was selective !
Wenger, for all his bitching, has, when the occasion demanded it, offered unequivocal and public apologies for the behaviour of his players.

Try avoid being selective and blinkered shoey ....

PMSL .. no I am not Wenger in disguise ... and I have made my stance pretty clear in several posts.
Let me repeat it for your benefit ... I really DO NOT GAF who the offending player is - whether Arsenal or lowly Colchester ... the penalty HAS to be stiffer .... a 10 game ban would soon see this horizontal sh*t disappearing from the game.

PS - Have you checked the EPL "Fair Play" League table yet?

Wenger has done no such thing. He barely ever apologises for his own players conduct, he's notorious for it. If you think otherwise, it's not me being blinkered and selective. You STILL haven't passed any comment on the Arsenal tackles I've posted. You STILL haven't condemned them. The worst of them all is the Thierry Henry one, I don't recall you saying anywhere he should have had a ten game ban for that, you've just ignored it. The Gallas tackle was a terrible one - where you you demanding a ten game ban then?

It's this hypocrisy that gets me. If Wenger came out when his own players did it, he'd have the moral high ground. He doesn't. That some teams are dirtier than others isn't new, Arsenal for a long time were one of them.

[Merlin]

I had forgotten that it was a "young" and "unmalicious" Shawcross who had broken Francis Jeffers' leg 2 seasons back !

Poor chap .... he didn't really mean it!

[LeFromage]

I think Patrick Barclay speaks quite well about it here:

http://www.skysports.com/video/clips/0,23791,13989,00.html

And a decent article here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1254454/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Now-Aaron-Ramsey--broken-legs-chance.html

Particularly the opening:

It was a familiar speech. ‘There is no way that was a malicious challenge,’ said David Kemp, assistant manager of Stoke City. ‘Ryan isn’t that sort of player. It was probably a new experience for him to get frustrated, that’s why he chased down the ball and made that tackle.

‘There was no malicious intent. It was a genuine attempt. We’ve seen far worse challenges go unpunished. It was just one of those football injuries, one of those incidents that frequently happen in the game. Before long Ryan might be on the end of one himself.’

Over time, only the names change. The quickest of wit will have spotted that Kemp is now Stoke’s chief scout, not assistant to Tony Pulis. His observation was not from Saturday, when Shawcross broke the leg of Aaron Ramsey, but from 2007 when he broke the leg of Francis Jeffers of Sheffield Wednesday with a tackle from behind. Maybe Arsene Wenger is correct not to believe in coincidence.

Very good. Now shall I post some in reply? Does that get us anywhere? Paul Parker disagrees:


http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/paul-parker/article/19625/

Alan Hansen, Gary Lineker and Alan Shearer all disagreed on MoTD on Saturday. Barclay and Samuel are both excellent journalists and worthy of reading, but it doesn't make them right.

Where did I state that they were right? You're obsessed with always being right. There's no middle ground. No consensus.

I merely posted a couple of thoughtful musings on the subject that might have contributed something to the debate.

That was when I stupidly mistook this for a debate...

[Merlin]

Wenger has done no such thing. He barely ever apologises for his own players conduct, he's notorious for it. If you think otherwise, it's not me being blinkered and selective. You STILL haven't passed any comment on the Arsenal tackles I've posted. You STILL haven't condemned them. The worst of them all is the Thierry Henry one, I don't recall you saying anywhere he should have had a ten game ban for that, you've just ignored it. The Gallas tackle was a terrible one - where you you demanding a ten game ban then?

It's this hypocrisy that gets me. If Wenger came out when his own players did it, he'd have the moral high ground. He doesn't. That some teams are dirtier than others isn't new, Arsenal for a long time were one of them.

FFS climb off your "anti Arsenal" soapbox you tool.
You sound like a rabid Keano right now...making apologies for everything non-Arsenal - and yeah, it's YOUR particular hypocrisy that p*sses me off TBH.
You don't like Wenger - that's fine by me ... just take the f**king blinkers off for one second.

Okay, I'll repeat myself ? I condemn any and ALL reckless, horizontal stud-up, premenditated or otherwise tackles from ALL players in the Football Leagues. ... ( and for your benefit ...Arsenal included).
How's that ... any clearer ?
Now ... your turn ... have you checked the Fair Play table following your "dirty Arsenal" post on the last page?
Never mind .....

[Makaveli]

Ah, no mate. That tackle, awful as it was, wasn't the reason Haaland's career was cut short. It was an unrelated injury that did that. But if we're looking just at the weekend, Ballack's "tackle" on Tevez was far worse than that of Shawcross, because the intent was so obvious.

Yes that was an appalling lunge, if Shawcross went in like that and broke Ramsay's leg i would be saying ban him for life, but i he went in going for the ball, his studs were not showing and had every right to go for it. I don't buy this 'break Arse players legs' theory, unfortunately it just happens, players make stupid challenges thats why there is an auto red for them. It's not like Arse players have never done anything similiar, if i recall last season against us, Eboue went hard in on Evra and with the right contact would have busted his leg good, it's not pre determined thing, luck plays a huge part.

As for teams kicking Arse about, well it happens to all the teams even though i don't agree with it, that's the style some teams have. It happens to us all the time when we play teams like Stoke, Bolton etc, it's npt just Arsenal who have to come up against these tactics, stop whinging Wenger, but that would be impossible for him.

[Merlin]

stop whinging Wenger, but that would be impossible for him.

That's rich coming from a Sir Jock supporter !!

[Shoeshine]

I notice you've not even reacted to the various awful Arsenal tackles posted. Are you Wenger in disguise?

Well, you completely misrepresented one of them by posting a picture to suit your case rather than a picture that showed the real incident.

I don't think anyone's claiming Arsenal are angels. Nor that Wenger isn't the most myopic manager in history.

Doesn't change the fact that another Arsenal player is lying in hospital with his career in the balance as the direct result of a poor tackle against a side who, in the build up, had quite openly stated their intent to play a physical, hard-hitting game against them as "everyone knows they don't like it".

Why wouldn't he be somewhat miffed at the outcome and drawing some kind of correlation?

I think you'll notice that Merls is arguing exactly that.

Because he might actually take some time to reflect, rather than throwing around accusations. Ramsey's injury is terrible, but the actual tackle was far from the worst you'd ever see - that's the point.

[Merlin]

I notice you've not even reacted to the various awful Arsenal tackles posted. Are you Wenger in disguise?

Well, you completely misrepresented one of them by posting a picture to suit your case rather than a picture that showed the real incident.

I don't think anyone's claiming Arsenal are angels. Nor that Wenger isn't the most myopic manager in history.

Doesn't change the fact that another Arsenal player is lying in hospital with his career in the balance as the direct result of a poor tackle against a side who, in the build up, had quite openly stated their intent to play a physical, hard-hitting game against them as "everyone knows they don't like it".

Why wouldn't he be somewhat miffed at the outcome and drawing some kind of correlation?

I think you'll notice that Merls is arguing exactly that.

Because he might actually take some time to reflect, rather than throwing around accusations. Ramsey's injury is terrible, but the actual tackle was far from the worst you'd ever see - that's the point.

Eh ?!!
WTF are you on about now Shoey ?

[Shoeshine]

I notice you've not even reacted to the various awful Arsenal tackles posted. Are you Wenger in disguise?

Well, you completely misrepresented one of them by posting a picture to suit your case rather than a picture that showed the real incident.

I don't think anyone's claiming Arsenal are angels. Nor that Wenger isn't the most myopic manager in history.

Doesn't change the fact that another Arsenal player is lying in hospital with his career in the balance as the direct result of a poor tackle against a side who, in the build up, had quite openly stated their intent to play a physical, hard-hitting game against them as "everyone knows they don't like it".

Why wouldn't he be somewhat miffed at the outcome and drawing some kind of correlation?

I think you'll notice that Merls is arguing exactly that.

Because he might actually take some time to reflect, rather than throwing around accusations. Ramsey's injury is terrible, but the actual tackle was far from the worst you'd ever see - that's the point.

Eh ?!!
WTF are you on about now Shoey ?

You have - above - said that Wenger does react properly when his players do bad things, at no point have you remotely criticised the various poor tackles that Arsenal players have made - not least that shocking one from Henry that deserves a season ban in my view - so it's up to you.

[Jontyh]

I still don't subscribe to the idea that teams go in any harder against Arsenal than any other. There aren't many in the bottom half of the table that have any other way of playing given their limited resources.
As for the bollocks that's being written about the Shawcross tackle, I don't know how much football many of you have played but if you have you'll know that when you get an oppo coming through you like Shawcross did and you can't side-step you need to get your feet off the ground so that the impact pushes your legs up and away, and you fall over him. As I've posted previously, it looked like Ramsey's right foot had got caught in the turf at an awkward angle so he couldn't ride the tackle and deflect the impact.
The other examples where players go in side-on, or go over the top of the ball, are calculated attempts to maim because they give their opponent no chance to evade.
I see no evidence whatsoever that Shawcross did any such thing.

[Eric Air Emu]

Oh so Dello's an Arsenal fan...I'm very slow.

[LeFromage]

You (Merlin) have - above - said that Wenger does react properly when his players do bad things, at no point have you remotely criticised the various poor tackles that Arsenal players have made - not least that shocking one from Henry that deserves a season ban in my view - so it's up to you.

I don't really know what to say about the Henry one, as clearly it was a few years ago and I have no recollection of what was said in response at the time from Wenger. It was way out line (although he did at least miss Weir - whether that was by accident or design only Henry will know) and quite similar to a flying Kuyt challenge the other season, which also went unpunished - perhaps an indication of where part of the problem lays. Referees don't protect players. Not in this country. Not to the degree that they should.

It's the most trotted out cliche in any British broadcast of a European game: "that wouldn't have been a foul in our league."

Perhaps it's not healthy for "our league" to be playing, apparently, to completely different rules.

And perhaps it's this permissive attitude to all manner of "committed" challenges that ultimately ends up with young players in hospital beds with their legs snapped in half.

[LeFromage]

Oh so Dello's an Arsenal fan...I'm very slow.

One of those statements is true.

[Shoeshine]

You (Merlin) have - above - said that Wenger does react properly when his players do bad things, at no point have you remotely criticised the various poor tackles that Arsenal players have made - not least that shocking one from Henry that deserves a season ban in my view - so it's up to you.

I don't really know what to say about the Henry one, as clearly it was a few years ago and I have no recollection of what was said in response at the time from Wenger. It was way out line (although he did at least miss Weir - whether that was by accident or design only Henry will know) and quite similar to a flying Kuyt challenge the other season, which also went unpunished - perhaps an indication of where part of the problem lays. Referees don't protect players. Not in this country. Not to the degree that they should.

It's the most trotted out cliche in any British broadcast of a European game: "that wouldn't have been a foul in our league."

Perhaps it's not healthy for "our league" to be playing, apparently, to completely different rules.

And perhaps it's this permissive attitude to all manner of "committed" challenges that ultimately ends up with young players in hospital beds with their legs snapped in half.

Broken legs abound in football everywhere I'm afraid. It's the nature of the game, a contact sport where legs are vulnerable. It's hardly unique to English football. And it always will happen unless you ban tackling. If someone catches a standing leg, then breaks will definitely follow. I do remember the Henry one, and Wenger did his usual justification act afterwards. Simply appalling.

[Eric Air Emu]

Why this obsession then? Can't you just leave Arsenal be?

[Shoeshine]

Here's the direct quote from Wenger following that assault by Thierry Henry on David Weir:

"Yes, I was worried. There was a great deal of pressure from the spectators, but Thierry's intention was to get the ball, not the man."

[LeFromage]

I still don't subscribe to the idea that teams go in any harder against Arsenal than any other. There aren't many in the bottom half of the table that have any other way of playing given their limited resources.
As for the bollocks that's being written about the Shawcross tackle, I don't know how much football many of you have played but if you have you'll know that when you get an oppo coming through you like Shawcross did and you can't side-step you need to get your feet off the ground so that the impact pushes your legs up and away, and you fall over him. As I've posted previously, it looked like Ramsey's right foot had got caught in the turf at an awkward angle so he couldn't ride the tackle and deflect the impact.
The other examples where players go in side-on, or go over the top of the ball, are calculated attempts to maim because they give their opponent no chance to evade.
I see no evidence whatsoever that Shawcross did any such thing.

Only one of those players was out of control. Wasn't Ramsey. He was on his feet while Shawcross flew through the air to hit him head-on.

As I said before, it was a challenge that disregarded the consequence that, no matter if he got the ball or not, he would hammer into his opponent with his full body weight. You even allude it yourself by suggesting that Ramsey should've anticipated getting cut in half and jumped in an attempt to minimise the chances of serious injury.

If your opponent has to take evasive action to protect himself, how can your challenge not be considered reckless?

[LeFromage]

Why this obsession then? Can't you just leave Arsenal be?

Someone's got to post something on this forum since everyone else has f*cked off.

[Shoeshine]

I still don't subscribe to the idea that teams go in any harder against Arsenal than any other. There aren't many in the bottom half of the table that have any other way of playing given their limited resources.
As for the bollocks that's being written about the Shawcross tackle, I don't know how much football many of you have played but if you have you'll know that when you get an oppo coming through you like Shawcross did and you can't side-step you need to get your feet off the ground so that the impact pushes your legs up and away, and you fall over him. As I've posted previously, it looked like Ramsey's right foot had got caught in the turf at an awkward angle so he couldn't ride the tackle and deflect the impact.
The other examples where players go in side-on, or go over the top of the ball, are calculated attempts to maim because they give their opponent no chance to evade.
I see no evidence whatsoever that Shawcross did any such thing.

Only one of those players was out of control. Wasn't Ramsey. He was on his feet while Shawcross flew through the air to hit him head-on.

As I said before, it was a challenge that disregarded the consequence that, no matter if he got the ball or not, he would hammer into his opponent with his full body weight. You even allude it yourself by suggesting that Ramsey should've anticipated getting cut in half and jumped in an attempt to minimise the chances of serious injury.

If your opponent has to take evasive action to protect himself, how can your challenge not be considered reckless?

How is any different from 50 or 60 similar tackles every weekend?

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