Re: UK politics thread

[Basil]

Decent analysis.

[horace]

She destroyed communities, but perhaps was a necessary evil in many ways, the country couldn’t go on as it had done in the 70s.

Since her, we’ve had:
Major - the compromise candidate had his work cut out to follow Maggie, he lost control of his own party and hung on grimly (sounds familiar...)
Blair - seemed like a breath of fresh air initially after the late Tory years, thought he had the balance about right in terms of domestic issues, but sadly Iraq will always define him.
Brown - timing wasn’t kind to him, but his clunky handling of the financial crisis showed he wasn’t a natural leader.
Cameron - despite being another Etonian toff he initially seemed to have brought the Tories into 21st century relevance. But calling the Brexit referendum will be his unwanted place in history.
May - dealt an impossible hand, but her unwillingness to compromise (or step down and let someone else have a go) risks throwing us over an economic cliff.

The standard view is that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary evils.

Thatcher was an out and out disgrace. For some people still, her name is a curse word.

Our Oz PMs over the same period have been more numerous but similarly lacklustre. While Thatcher was taking on Scargill and taking crusts from the soup bowls of many, Hawke was presiding over an Accord between government and unions with pay rises foregone in return for social infrastructure.

[beamer]

Well, what she did isn’t quite nuking a city, even if she pretty much economically nuked Liverpool...

The question is whether there was much alternative to some of her actions. Mining communities for example were proud of their identity, but it was an industry that had to disappear sooner or later, and it must have been a pretty awful way of life, dangerous, unhealthy work... it’s just that there was nothing to replace it, and other heavy industries, in many parts of the country. The resulting north-south divide and London-centric politics has played a large part in the whole Brexit scenario.

[horace]

Well, what she did isn’t quite nuking a city, even if she pretty much economically nuked Liverpool...

The question is whether there was much alternative to some of her actions. Mining communities for example were proud of their identity, but it was an industry that had to disappear sooner or later, and it must have been a pretty awful way of life, dangerous, unhealthy work... it’s just that there was nothing to replace it, and other heavy industries, in many parts of the country. The resulting north-south divide and London-centric politics has played a large part in the whole Brexit scenario.

Yep. Heaps of interesting points in your post.

Imagine 300 years ahead. Imagine we still have historians (and Test cricket!!).

Thatcher may end up being lauded for shutting down coal mining.

[taipan]

Well, what she did isn’t quite nuking a city, even if she pretty much economically nuked Liverpool...

The question is whether there was much alternative to some of her actions. Mining communities for example were proud of their identity, but it was an industry that had to disappear sooner or later, and it must have been a pretty awful way of life, dangerous, unhealthy work... it’s just that there was nothing to replace it, and other heavy industries, in many parts of the country. The resulting north-south divide and London-centric politics has played a large part in the whole Brexit scenario.

Yep. Heaps of interesting points in your post.

Imagine 300 years ahead. Imagine we still have historians (and Test cricket!!).

Thatcher may end up being lauded for shutting down coal mining.

Labour closed far more mines than Thatcher.

But don't let the facts get in the way.

[taipan]

http://peoplescharter.org/pit-closures-were-a-labour-policy-wilson-shut-twice-as-many-as-thatcher/

[taipan]

Well, what she did isn’t quite nuking a city, even if she pretty much economically nuked Liverpool...

The question is whether there was much alternative to some of her actions. Mining communities for example were proud of their identity, but it was an industry that had to disappear sooner or later, and it must have been a pretty awful way of life, dangerous, unhealthy work... it’s just that there was nothing to replace it, and other heavy industries, in many parts of the country. The resulting north-south divide and London-centric politics has played a large part in the whole Brexit scenario.

Liverpool was farked in the 50's and 60's. Long before Thatcher.

[Basil]

http://peoplescharter.org/pit-closures-were-a-labour-policy-wilson-shut-twice-as-many-as-thatcher/

Or, put another way: 43% of mining jobs lost under Wilson. 80% under Thatcher. Lies, damn lies and statistics as someone once said.

[taipan]

http://peoplescharter.org/pit-closures-were-a-labour-policy-wilson-shut-twice-as-many-as-thatcher/

Or, put another way: 43% of mining jobs lost under Wilson. 80% under Thatcher. Lies, damn lies and statistics as someone once said.

Source?

Either way shows that Maggie was not the ogre that some portray today.

[horace]

ha! ... don't give a rats whether it was Thatcher the demented old weasel shitting in her pants or Labour that wiped coal mining. From a planet point of view maybe history 300 years hence will imbue a kind rosy light on the demise of coal mining in that country.

So. What sort of medium and long term future does Pomgolia have post Brexit? Yes, we know that hard or soft it is going to be difficult in the short term.

I expect that in the next hundred years, we may see parts of Outer Pomgolia break off. Scotland clearly has independence in the frame, while the logic of a hard Brexit will over time increase the probability of the loss of the occupied Northern Irish counties.

Free Ireland can be expected to overcome the short term pain of Brexit and come out stronger. I am no fan of the present Irish Government but they are playing their cards well.

So what of Inner Pomgolia? It is truly difficult to see a positive future. Maybe they will set themselves up as a tax dodge European haven rivalling Panama, the Caymans etc. Will the more established and quasi legit finance sector remain or move to the European mainland? 

What will be the employment sources for the Inner Pomgolian residents?

[Basil]

http://peoplescharter.org/pit-closures-were-a-labour-policy-wilson-shut-twice-as-many-as-thatcher/

Or, put another way: 43% of mining jobs lost under Wilson. 80% under Thatcher. Lies, damn lies and statistics as someone once said.

Source?

Either way shows that Maggie was not the ogre that some portray today.

Leftfield. Probably no more or less accurate than the source you quoted.

[Basil]

ha! ... don't give a rats whether it was Thatcher the demented old weasel shitting in her pants or Labour that wiped coal mining. From a planet point of view maybe history 300 years hence will imbue a kind rosy light on the demise of coal mining in that country.

So. What sort of medium and long term future does Pomgolia have post Brexit? Yes, we know that hard or soft it is going to be difficult in the short term.

I expect that in the next hundred years, we may see parts of Outer Pomgolia break off. Scotland clearly has independence in the frame, while the logic of a hard Brexit will over time increase the probability of the loss of the occupied Northern Irish counties.

Free Ireland can be expected to overcome the short term pain of Brexit and come out stronger. I am no fan of the present Irish Government but they are playing their cards well.

So what of Inner Pomgolia? It is truly difficult to see a positive future. Maybe they will set themselves up as a tax dodge European haven rivalling Panama, the Caymans etc. Will the more established and quasi legit finance sector remain or move to the European mainland? 

What will be the employment sources for the Inner Pomgolian residents?

Horrie, I would love to say that the future is rosy and the sun will shine daily on God's own country, if only to stop you smirking 

The truth is that even in the best case scenario, there will be considerable dislocation which means lost jobs, mortgages not being paid and homes lost.

If we leave with no deal, the shite will hit the fan. You will hear a lot of guff from brexit diehards that everything will be peachy because we will be free to trade under WTO rules. That's fine but we have no trade deals in place and no-one trades under WTO rules only.

[horace]

Meanwhile plans are afoot to move ER and co out of London in the event of riots post a no deal Brexit.

Would have a thought Queenie was at greater risk of getting into a car with her hubby.

LINK

[Basil]

Meanwhile plans are afoot to move ER and co out of London in the event of riots post a no deal Brexit.

Would have a thought Queenie was at greater risk of getting into a car with her hubby.

LINK

Nothing to see here. This is probably a dusting down of plans that have been in place since the onset of the Cold War.

[taipan]

Meanwhile plans are afoot to move ER and co out of London in the event of riots post a no deal Brexit.

Would have a thought Queenie was at greater risk of getting into a car with her hubby.

LINK

Nothing to see here. This is probably a dusting down of plans that have been in place since the onset of the Cold War.

TBF horrie has just found out about the Cold War

[horace]

Phurt, I am still prosecuting it.

[Basil]

So, Sunderland voted to leave in the referendum. Fair enough. Nissan has now decided to build its new X Trail in Japan rather than at its Sunderland factory due to uncertainties about brexit. Serves the Mackem halfwits right.

[horace]

So Witless has been back in Pomgolia, visited a hardware store and visited a certain Highbury cemetery grave.

LINK

[horace]

Here is an interesting article about four average English blokes who are putting up Billboard signs around London and Bristol. The posters they are putting up are mainly quotes from Rees-Mogg, May and Boris.

Link

There is a great quote from one of the blokes likening Brexit to a mid-life crisis.

“Britain is having a post-imperialism mid-, possibly late-life crisis where it’s not quite sure what it’s doing. It’s just gone and bought a motorbike and a leather jacket, it’s a midlife crisis called Brexit, and I don’t think it’s going to work out.”

[taipan]

Bit harsh on May. It's no secret she was anti-Brexit. As she has said on numerous occasions, it was the will of the people to leave, and she has to do what the public voted for.

To me that is more laudable than open to criticism.

[horace]

Bit harsh on May. It's no secret she was anti-Brexit. As she has said on numerous occasions, it was the will of the people to leave, and she has to do what the public voted for.

To me that is more laudable than open to criticism.

Agree. Fact is she said the quoted words. Given her position she should not have stood for the leadership when Cameron resigned.

Way younger than me, but I liked the sound of the blokes doing the posters. I would happily shout them a round.

[taipan]

Bit harsh on May. It's no secret she was anti-Brexit. As she has said on numerous occasions, it was the will of the people to leave, and she has to do what the public voted for.

To me that is more laudable than open to criticism.

Agree. Fact is she said the quoted words. Given her position she should not have stood for the leadership when Cameron resigned.

Way younger than me, but I liked the sound of the blokes doing the posters. I would happily shout them a round.

Maybe just trying to put the country before her personal views. Can't say that about many politicians these days.

[beamer]

Yeah, if nobody from the Remain side had stood, it would have been giving free licence to the hard Brexit brigade to do whatever they liked. Someone who originally wanted to remain but was prepared to be pragmatic and honour the referendum result seemed the best compromise at the time.

Perhaps that hasn’t proved to be the case, but with Boris or similar in charge I don’t think we would have ever got close to a deal being on the table, it would have been even more chaotic, if that’s possible.

[Growler]

Basil, I don't believe Remain ever had to simply "suck it up" in the way I think you mean. That said, I don't believe that many leading remain campaigners have acted in good faith either - and neither have the EU itself.

Now, I get that we're "leaving the club" so to speak, and so we lose the obvious benefits of membership if we don't pay the subscriptions. I also see why the EU "leadership" can't be seen to be giving us anything resembling a good deal.

The general public across large parts of Europe feel ignored and disenfranchised, as shown by the rise in extremist parties. The bureaucrats are shitting conkers that sooner or later, Le Pen's Front Nationale, Germany's AfD, or some equally awful bunch further East will eventually "do a UKIP" and force a vote. Another Leave vote on the continent, and the whole thing is holed below the waterline.

There's no disputing that leaving will have economic consequences for us - but nobody is honest enough to acknowledge that the EU will also suffer. Last year, we imported around £70 Bn more than we exported to EU countries. Of course the big trading bloc will cope easier with the aftermath - but let's not pretend it will be painless across the channel.

If we crash out, we don't suffer in isolation. One out of every seven cars built in Germany comes here ... that's a big jobs hit if they can't sell them to somebody else. £650m of wine comes here from France, and the same from Italy. It will take more than a few days to find somewhere to sell that lot. Likewise, considering that Tunisia & Turkey are nice holiday destinations, and only a slightly longer flight, I'm sure Greek and Spanish tourist chiefs are already taking bookings from Chinese, Americans and Russian visitors to fill the rooms once filled by UK holidaymakers.

Likewise, it won't only be us dying off through lack of pills. I'm sure GSK and AstraZeneca are the sole manufacturers of some fairly new patented drugs widely used throughout the world.

Yes, the negotiations have been a complete shit-show, but can anyone say, hand on heart that the fault is all on the part of the UK?

It's fair enough that the EU will not sign off on any trade issues right now - but what good reason is there for not even ** began** talks ... and won't even consider it until the divorce is finalised.

Whilst I'm not willing to say that the UK is "being punished" - IMO there's no doubt that the EU is not remotely negotiating in good faith. If they were, in the 30 months since the referendum result there should be - on an industry by industry basis (eg aviation, vehicles and pharma) - protocols agreed and ready to sign off at a few hours notice. All it needs is agreement to continue with the current arrangements (with a certain payment towards administration, no problem with that).

The question is - why isn't there?

BTW, I don't disagree with you regarding the mutterings of the more extreme Brexiteers. By the same token I've nothing but utter contempt for those whose attitude is Remain at any cost, and fook you thickos who don't agree.

To pick up on just the highlights from this old posts, on the one hand we have Donald Tusk's latest utterances about "special places in Hell". - LINK

Although hell isn't reserved for Brexiters, it seems - LINK

On the other hand, Dutch hospitals are warning of the dangers of No Deal - LINK

It's like the 4 Greek bail-outs in 10 years all over again. Lots of tough talk, but ultimately a loss of nerve from the EU ... Greece crashing out of the Euro, the currency died there and then.

There will be at least an interim deal - probably announced on March 30th.

[beamer]

Most of the damage will be already done by then, though. Businesses across the country are already acting, or preparing to act, on no deal contingency plans, many of which involve moving jobs and money abroad, probably permanently.

If the uncertainty persists into March, panic buying is going to take hold in a big way, so shortages will happen ahead of time. So we don’t need to actually get to no-deal to take a lot of the hit from it.

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