England vs Sri Lanka, 4th ODI, Trent Bridge, 6 July, 2011

Ummm...... Ummmm..... and that's the point.

Interesting that Wahab Riaz was bowling excellent yorkers and bouncers in a T20 game but was going for a few yet Atherton mention that he'd still take him over a plodder any day since it was that type of bowling that could win you a world cup.

Yeah well, not really. I don't mean to sound all one eyed nationalist, but India have consistently had one of the better batting line-ups over the last decade atleast and very few of our guys are all-out sloggers. Dravid and Kallis are good examples of how more conservative batsmen can make an exceptional career in ODIs. Infact the few times I've had absolutely no faith in our line-up was when it was filled with 'specialist' ODI players, the so called unorthodox shot makers.

As I said, Cook, Trott, Pietersen and Morgan are a seriously good core to build a team around.

Gary 111 wrote:Out of interest who would people say are our best strike bowlers on the county scene? (even if they go round the park)

This season, of bowlers with more than 100 overs under their belts, the leading s/r in FC cricket belong to Kyle Hogg (yeah, I didn't see that one coming either), Stuart Meaker, Tim Murtagh, Toby Roland-Jones, Jack Brooks and Reece Topbottomly.

In List A (not that there's been much P40 played this season), Franks, Mahmood, Gregory, Stokes, Patterson, Harris, of bowlers who've had more than a few overs.

doremi wrote:Dravid and Kallis are good examples of how more conservative batsmen can make an exceptional career in ODIs.

It just doesn't seem to work that way for England's batsmen though. Players like them have shown the ability to adapt their game when required, ours tend to just play in the same way and score at virtually the same rate whether they're playing Tests, ODIs or even T20.

doremi wrote:Yeah well, not really. I don't mean to sound all one eyed nationalist, but India have consistently had one of the better batting line-ups over the last decade atleast and very few of our guys are all-out sloggers. Dravid and Kallis are good examples of how more conservative batsmen can make an exceptional career in ODIs. Infact the few times I've had absolutely no faith in our line-up was when it was filled with 'specialist' ODI players, the so called unorthodox shot makers.

As I said, Cook, Trott, Pietersen and Morgan are a seriously good core to build a team around.

I wouldn't be too adverse to leaving all of those in. The problem is that Trott bats at three and he just can't get the ball away in the powerplays. But yeah, if Cook gets out, there's not many others who'll necessarily stay around for the duration. But I just feel that in the batting department, we've got some serious young talent that can be nurtured into good ODI players before the next WC. Now is the time, or was the time. Hales, Taylor, Stokes. They are the boys.

I mentioned before that Bell's problem is he premeditates every shot. He doesn't do this in Tests - just waits for the right ball to clip or caress.

But in ODIs he's stuck in a mindset that every ball needs to be cleverly dabbed or poked and often he misses out on the real scoring opportunities as a result. The number of full tosses he's dabbed for one because he'd already committed to a premeditated tip and run is amazing.

He can't force shots. He can't force the pace. He can't react to a situation. He's just stuck in his own little head, bobbing along, obsessing about dab sweeps and Maltesers.

Gary 111 wrote:Out of interest who would people say are our best strike bowlers on the county scene? (even if they go round the park)

Hmm - just cricinfo'ed it and the answer staring back at me is Chris Woakes! (FC cricket anyway) - in general there's a right mixed bag here - notice Super Adil on 2 of the 3 lists though. One of the other few on 2 lists is Alfonso Thomas - but he's got 1 cap for SA - are they now randomly capping players to stop us mopping up their dross-weasels?

FC Div 1 2010 strike rate (at least 50 wickets)
1) Andre Adams = 40.2
2) Neil Carter = 41.9
3) Glen Chapple = 43.0
4) Chris Woakes = 44.0
5) Imran Tahir = 46.1
6) Charl Willoughby = 52.9
7) Super Adil = 53.1
8. David Masters = 55.1

FC Div 2 2010 strike rate (at least 50 wickets)
1) Gemaal Hussain = 37.4
2) James Harris = 42.2
3) Corey Collymore = 43.5
4) Jon Lewis = 46.6
5) Matthew Hoggard = 50.0

Clydesbank 40 strike rate (at least 15 wickets)
1) David Payne = 13.8
2) Boyd Rankin = 16.6
3) Alfonso Thomas = 18.0
4) James Kirtley = 18.1
5) Zander de Bruyn = 18.9
6) Chris Rushworth = 20.8
7) Murali Kartik = 20.8
8. Liam Daggett = 21.3
9) Imran Tahir = 22.0
10) Chris Wood = 23.7

Friends Provident T20 strike rate (at least 15 wickets)
1) Kieron Pollard = 12.0
2) Danny Briggs = 12.9
3) Alfonso Thomas = 13.2
4) Tom Smith (Middlesex) = 13.2
5) Saj the Wonder Horse = 13.8
6) Stephen Parry = 13.8
7) Keith Barker = 13.8
Super Adil = 14.0
9) Matt Coles = 14.9
10) Chris Tremlett = 15.0

doremi wrote:Yeah well, not really. I don't mean to sound all one eyed nationalist, but India have consistently had one of the better batting line-ups over the last decade atleast and very few of our guys are all-out sloggers. Dravid and Kallis are good examples of how more conservative batsmen can make an exceptional career in ODIs. Infact the few times I've had absolutely no faith in our line-up was when it was filled with 'specialist' ODI players, the so called unorthodox shot makers.

As I said, Cook, Trott, Pietersen and Morgan are a seriously good core to build a team around.

Going into the World Cup 1999 in England Dravid had played 80 odd ODI's, had a batting average below 35 and a S/R in the mid 60s - he developed his game and became an excellent ODI batsman averaging over 40 by the time he'd played 300 ODI's (though his strike rate never got much above 70).

Don't think he often batted at 6 for India though.....

Get young Lewis Gregory in there, on seeing him the other day he was indeed pushing 88mph and was getting the ball up there. What is he? 19.... 23 by the next world cup - loverly jubberly.

If we're going to go on just averages, well we're back to selecting county dobbers again. Or Saj Mahmood.

2010 Gary? Uhhh, you have the wrong year. The wrongage yearage....

Glancing down that list of "strike" bowlers, most of them are non-England qualified, old, or just plain FFS. Or all three, in some cases!

It used to be like that when we were looking down the top FC county runscorers/batting averages though. Aussies, Yarpies, retireds and Ramprakash. Always took a while to find the first name England might consider!

David Payne has a career s/r of 18 in List A. He was England U19s stand out bowler in the World Cup. Left armer in the Nathan Bracken stylee.

But he looked shite as anything on the tele the other day. Lost his pace. What's going on?

JKLever wrote:Get young Lewis Gregory in there, on seeing him the other day he was indeed pushing 88mph and was getting the ball up there. What is he? 19.... 23 by the next world cup - loverly jubberly.

If we're going to go on just averages, well we're back to selecting county dobbers again. Or Saj Mahmood.

I don't think it'd hurt to give guys like Gregory and Meaker a look-see.

Although I'd be worried Meaker would explode. He's a bit veiny.

Gary 111 wrote:

doremi wrote:Yeah well, not really. I don't mean to sound all one eyed nationalist, but India have consistently had one of the better batting line-ups over the last decade atleast and very few of our guys are all-out sloggers. Dravid and Kallis are good examples of how more conservative batsmen can make an exceptional career in ODIs. Infact the few times I've had absolutely no faith in our line-up was when it was filled with 'specialist' ODI players, the so called unorthodox shot makers.

As I said, Cook, Trott, Pietersen and Morgan are a seriously good core to build a team around.

Going into the World Cup 1999 in England Dravid had played 80 odd ODI's, had a batting average below 35 and a S/R in the mid 60s - he developed his game and became an excellent ODI batsman averaging over 40 by the time he'd played 300 ODI's (though his strike rate never got much above 70).

Don't think he often batted at 6 for India though.....

He played at 5 for quite a few ODIs though, finished a few games for us.

Brass Monkey wrote:

doremi wrote:Yeah well, not really. I don't mean to sound all one eyed nationalist, but India have consistently had one of the better batting line-ups over the last decade atleast and very few of our guys are all-out sloggers. Dravid and Kallis are good examples of how more conservative batsmen can make an exceptional career in ODIs. Infact the few times I've had absolutely no faith in our line-up was when it was filled with 'specialist' ODI players, the so called unorthodox shot makers.

As I said, Cook, Trott, Pietersen and Morgan are a seriously good core to build a team around.

I wouldn't be too adverse to leaving all of those in. The problem is that Trott bats at three and he just can't get the ball away in the powerplays. But yeah, if Cook gets out, there's not many others who'll necessarily stay around for the duration. But I just feel that in the batting department, we've got some serious young talent that can be nurtured into good ODI players before the next WC. Now is the time, or was the time. Hales, Taylor, Stokes. They are the boys.

Maybe that's the problem then - we've already got 4-6 nailed, we're just batting them all too high. E.g. Pietersen averages 116 batting at 5 with a S/R of 99 (admittedly a small sample of 12 innings), while at 4 he's been nothing special - averages 38.5 at S/R of 85 from 63 innings.

Give Trott the 'Dravid' role at 4, with Morgan the improviser at the increasingly important number 6 position. Maybe get rid of one of our seamers for Adil Rashid or Fat Sam. Trott would mean if we are 20/2 he could at least play the recovery innings, and is less likely to be batting with Cook. KP and or Morgan could move up the order if we lose our 3rd wicket after 25 overs. (Not that I expect England to show this kind of lexibility in their thinking!)

Cook
Kieswetter
Hales / Taylor
Trott
Pietersen
Morgan
Patel
Swann
Bresnan (Broad if he ever gets his form back)
Anderson
Dirtbag or A.N. Other 'death' bowler

Brass Monkey wrote:2010 Gary? Uhhh, you have the wrong year. The wrongage yearage....

Bigger sample - plus Dello had already posted 2011.

If you can be bothered, Meaker is looking pretty good around 40 seconds of this vid:



And around 2.50 in this vid:



I must admit, I watched it with the sound down because... well, because it's Surrey....

I was at that game both days, and yeah he was pretty sharp.

Gary 111 wrote:
Maybe that's the problem then...Other 'death' bowler

Yeah, I'd prefer that, certainly, I don't think it'll happen with our selectors. They've got the sort of valid stancepoint that the likes of KP and Morgan should come in as soon as possible, so that they've got time for their innings. Of course, it hasn't happened because they've already been behind rates / where they wanted to be etc...

JKLever wrote:I was at that game both days, and yeah he was pretty sharp.

A lot of shite in between those crackerjacks? I've a feeling he's country miles away from being the finished article...

Indeed, it was Middleoftheroadshire they were playing. I genuinely don't know the answer. I'd just like to see an England bowler try a yorker again.

We must have invented them, given the name... still, we're crap at most things we invented! One-day cricket being a prime example...

Brass Monkey wrote:If you can be bothered, Meaker is looking pretty good around 40 seconds of this vid:

And around 2.50 in this vid:

I must admit, I watched it with the sound down because... well, because it's Surrey....

He looked really good in that clip, nice high action, good steepling bounce, reminded me of Treml.... oh, that was Tremlett

Still, looked decent - reminded me a little of Shahzad, good pace, aggressive. Definitely something to work with there.

Crikey! And he scored 94 against a Test attack (well Bangladesh) last year. Ticks all the right boxes - quick, can bat, and most importantly, born in Durban.