Re: Aus Federal Politics thread (II)

[JGK]

McNeil.

Actually it is just Neal. There could be a "Mc" in there somewhere but no one is game to find out.

You can imagine her saying to Della "I'm Belinda. Kneel!"

[skully]

McNeil.

Actually it is just Neal. There could be a "Mc" in there somewhere but no one is game to find out.

You can imagine her saying to Della "I'm Belinda. Kneel!"

They both look like Rottweillers.

[bodyline]

FOR a man who so warmly embraces every foreigner seeking asylum in Australia, Bob Brown is strangely xenophobic when it comes to foreigners who want to lend us money or invest here.
Yesterday, at the National Press Club, Brown did his best to stoke up anger against investors from "Switzerland, London, Calcutta, Beijing" and foreigners who, according to a study commissioned by the Greens and released yesterday, own 83 per cent of Australian mining companies. It was not a pretty sight.

Economic debate in Australia will take a turn for the worse once the Greens hold the balance of power in the Senate. Brown may have good intentions but he is economically illiterate. That illiteracy is likely to cost ordinary Australians dearly; many will lose their jobs and their standard of living is likely to fall. It is surprising given their well-developed economic policies that the Greens have managed to avoid careful scrutiny of their party platform. Their industry policy should worry many Australians.

The Greens have long run a campaign against the mining industry and particularly the coal industry. In fact their stated party policy is no new coalmines and no expansion of existing mines. They fully intend to close down the Australian coal industry. Sooner rather than later.

Brown makes two arguments in defence of this policy. First, that renewables would replace coal. Second, that the Australian mining industry is largely foreign owned. Presumably that means the Australian government can destroy foreign investments with impunity.

Economic illiterates make several mistakes in their analysis. Because of his anti-foreign bias, Brown overlooks the benefits of interaction with foreigners. Unfortunately, he is not alone in exhibiting "capital xenophobia".

Australia has long had to borrow money from the rest of the world to finance our economic prosperity. The local economy has grown and foreign investors got their money back. This arrangement has benefited everybody; Australian savings are simply too small to finance our economic growth and standard of living. Foreigners invest in those economies with good prospects and low levels of sovereign risk.

Australia has a good reputation as an investment destination. But Brown is placing that hard-earned reputation at risk. Suggestions by a major political party, in a formal partnership with government and holding the balance of power in the Senate, that foreign investment can be taxed with impunity, or even shut down, raises perceptions of sovereign risk. What's worse, he is not alone. The ill-fated resource super-profits tax also raised serious concerns about sovereign risk.

Remarkably, Brown admits that Australia gets "jobs, export income, royalties and company tax" from mining. But that is not enough; he wants it all. He seems to object to foreigners, in return for their loans and investments, getting "profits, dividends, [and] capital appreciation". There is also a bit of double counting going on; dividends and capital appreciation amount to profits. Or perhaps Brown doesn't know that.

Brown is worried that foreign investors will earn $265 billion from their Australian investments over the next five years and, of that, $50bn will leave the country and $205bn will be reinvested.

Putting those figures into context, the Australian Taxation Office reports for the 2008-09 financial year that the mining industry paid $13.3bn in corporate tax. Of that amount coalmining paid nearly $3.6bn. So the industry paid more in tax in one year than the $10bn Brown suspects will leave the country in dividends each year.

What Brown imagines is that all that money going to foreigners could be diverted into a Norwegian-style sovereign wealth fund. It's not clear what he thinks will happen to the jobs and export income once foreign investment has been withdrawn because it no longer earns any profits, but Brown imagines that Australia could then be like Norway. However, unlike the Norwegian government, the Australian government does not hold large ownership stakes in the minerals industry. So the establishment of a minerals sovereign fund would not mean the diversion of existing government revenue into a fund but rather higher levels of taxation, discouraging work, saving and investment. After all, why do these things if the government is just going to tax away your money?

Economic illiterates believe that with some tweaking the world can be made a better place. In Brown's case the existence of a carbon tax and the demise of the coal industry would make the world a much better place. Yet he has given little thought to how that world would be powered. It's all very well talking about "renewables", but which renewables and how much would they cost?

As the Productivity Commission recently flagged, renewables are expensive; wind power costs $150-$214 a megawatt hour, solar costs $400-$473 a megawatt hour. By contrast, coal-fired electricity costs less than $100 a megawatt hour.

A coal-free Australia would be a lot more expensive, with lower standards of living.

Brown quoted the UN statistic that for every year of delay on climate change $1 trillion of costs will be incurred. What he hasn't explained is how undermining the Australian economy would reduce that cost and why Australians should bear that cost when the UN hasn't managed to convince its members to act in concert on climate change.

The biggest problem Brown faces is that you can't intervene in the economy on the scale he desires without a massive reduction in our economic wellbeing. The problem Australia faces is that Brown doesn't understand that point.

Sinclair Davidson is a professor in the school of economics, finance and marketing at RMIT University and a senior fellow at the Institute of Public Affairs.

[skully]

Caught the midday nooz on the car radio and the Vulture trotted out her solid political reasoning and in-depth explanation for everything she does these days again. "Imposing the ban on live cattle exports to Indonesia was ABSOLUTELY THE RIGHT THING TO DO."

FFS, tell that to the topenders going broke as a result of that dope Ludwig's unconsulted, unresearched knee-jerk response to the Four Corners story.

Pretty soon we'll all be living in a morally and ethically perfect banana republic, with Bob Brown wearing the crown of King Banana.

[embee]

Caught the midday nooz on the car radio and the Vulture trotted out her solid political reasoning and in-depth explanation for everything she does these days again. "Imposing the ban on live cattle exports to Indonesia was ABSOLUTELY THE RIGHT THING TO DO."

FFS, tell that to the topenders going broke as a result of that dope Ludwig's unconsulted, unresearched knee-jerk response to the Four Corners story.

Pretty soon we'll all be living in a morally and ethically perfect banana republic, with Bob Brown wearing sitting on the crown of King Banana.

FIXED

[skully]

I nearly said "shoved up his @rse" but thought I might be accused of being crass.

[Zat]

I don't see what the big deal is about what happens to the cows in Indonesia. There's all this talk about 'being humane' to the livestock.

FFS, they all end up dead anyway, I don't imagine the cows Australian abattoirs slaughter enjoy the process all that much more than the ones that go offshore. And the boat trip is hardly a luxury cruise...

[bodyline]

How come the Greens didn't nomintate a shadow minister for humane live cattle exports?

[Zat]

Because after they named their shadows for treasury, the environment, education, arts, health, defence, agriculture, families, trade, workplace relations, infrastructure, transport, climate change, water, ports, community services, disabilities, sport, vetereans affairs, tourism, regional Australia, immigration, science, justice, foreign affairs, and finance, they worked out that each elected green had about 4 portfolios already.

[bodyline]

Because after they named their shadows for treasury, the environment, education, arts, health, defence, agriculture, families, trade, workplace relations, infrastructure, transport, climate change, water, ports, community services, disabilities, sport, vetereans affairs, tourism, regional Australia, immigration, science, justice, foreign affairs, and finance, they worked out that each elected green had about 4 portfolios already.

They don't have any of the above portfolios - they have Antartic, Gay/Straight/Bisexual and transgender portfolio, etc- and 60 or 70 others

[bodyline]

The Australian Greens portfolios:

Australian Greens Leader, Bob Brown, Senator for Tasmania:
Prime Minister & Cabinet; Treasury; Foreign Affairs; Defence & National Security; Schools & Education; Forests (TAS); and Whaling & Antarctica.

Party Whip, Rachel Siewert, Senator for Western Australia:
Family, Community & Disability Services; Fisheries & Marine; Ageing; Indigenous Affairs & Indigenous Health; Agriculture; The Kimberley & Northern Australia; and Natural Resource Management.

Party Room Chair, Sarah Hanson-Young, Senator for South Australia:
Immigration & Citizenship; Consumer Affairs; Water & the Murray Darling Basin; Human Rights; Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Issues; Youth, Childhood Education & Care; and Tibet.

Scott Ludlam, Senator for Western Australia:
Broadband, Communications & Digital Economy; Housing; Nuclear; Mining (WA); Transport, Infrastructure, Waste & Sustainable Cities; Burma; and Assisting on Defence.

Richard di Natale, Senator for Victoria:
Health, including preventive; Dental Health; Sport; Gambling; Multiculturalism; East Timor; and West Papua.

Lee Rhiannon; Senator for New South Wales:
Democracy; Local Government; Higher Education; Assisting on National Security; Women; International Aid & Development; Animal Welfare; and Forests.

Penny Wright, Senator for South Australia:
Attorney General (excluding National Security); Native Title; Veterans Affairs; Social Inclusion; Mental Health; and Heritage.

Larissa Waters; Senator for Queensland:
Environment, Biodiversity & Natural Heritage; Population; Great Barrier Reef & Coral Sea; Cape York; World Heritage; Tourism; and Mining.

Adam Bandt, Member for Melbourne: Employment & Workplace Relations; Emergency Services; Banking; Innovation & Industry, including High Speed Rail; Science & Research; Assisting on Climate and Energy; and House of Representatives Reform.

[JGK]

Funny how there are more Green Senators from WA than there are from NSW.

[Zat]

That kind of proves my point...

Some of those portfolios...

Whaling & Antarctica - Why would someone be needed on Whaling? They want it banned. Most countries want it banned. Does it deserve a ministry if you want it banned?

Tibet - FFS... Do they have a portfolio for Taiwan? Or Palestine? Or any other disputed terrirtories?

Nuclear - See Whaling...

Burma - Well, the 'Tibet' thing makes a smidgin more sense.

East Timor; and West Papua - And what about the rest of Indonesia?

Democracy - Really? It needs its own portfolio? Honestly? Have I said FFS yet?

[embee]

"Dental Health"....pommists

[bodyline]

So no Shadow Minister for the rights of boat people or people smugglers?

[Big Dog]

No doubt they will have a shadow minister for Wallabies soon.



Wallaby f@rts are the answer

[Big Dog]

Economic debate in Australia will take a turn for the worse once the Greens hold the balance of power in the Senate. Brown may have good intentions but he is economically illiterate. That illiteracy is likely to cost ordinary Australians dearly; many will lose their jobs and their standard of living is likely to fall. It is surprising given their well-developed economic policies that the Greens have managed to avoid careful scrutiny of their party platform. Their industry policy should worry many Australians.

This goes to my previous comment that the Greens don't care about the human cost of forcing through their ideology. Their answer is always to increase taxation to pay for the increased welfare cost of the thousands of people they toss on the dole que.

[skully]

I don't see what the big deal is about what happens to the cows in Indonesia. There's all this talk about 'being humane' to the livestock.

FFS, they all end up dead anyway, I don't imagine the cows Australian abattoirs slaughter enjoy the process all that much more than the ones that go offshore. And the boat trip is hardly a luxury cruise...

Aye Zog. But I was relunctant to say it for fear of the pinko-greeno set coming out crying and throwing their hands up. FFS, these beasts end up on your plate in bite size chunks.

I didn't particularly like the Four Corners footage but slaughtering is slaughtering which ever way you look at it.

Now that idiot Ludwig has offended the Indonesians and jeopardizes the businesses of 1000s of top-enders. And you can bet the Yanks and the South Americans are just queueing to fill the void left by the Aussie live cattle ban.

A Govt held to randsom by farkin Bob Brown and his lace-panty wearing cohorts.

[skully]

The Australian Greens portfolios:

Australian Greens Leader, Bob Brown, Senator for Tasmania:
Prime Minister & Cabinet; Treasury; Foreign Affairs; Defence & National Security; Schools & Education; Forests (TAS); and Whaling & Antarctica.

Party Whip, Rachel Siewert, Senator for Western Australia:
Family, Community & Disability Services; Fisheries & Marine; Ageing; Indigenous Affairs & Indigenous Health; Agriculture; The Kimberley & Northern Australia; and Natural Resource Management.

Party Room Chair, Sarah Hanson-Young, Senator for South Australia:
Immigration & Citizenship; Consumer Affairs; Water & the Murray Darling Basin; Human Rights; Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Issues; Youth, Childhood Education & Care; and Tibet.

Scott Ludlam, Senator for Western Australia:
Broadband, Communications & Digital Economy; Housing; Nuclear; Mining (WA); Transport, Infrastructure, Waste & Sustainable Cities; Burma; and Assisting on Defence.

Richard di Natale, Senator for Victoria:
Health, including preventive; Dental Health; Sport; Gambling; Multiculturalism; East Timor; and West Papua.

Lee Rhiannon; Senator for New South Wales:
Democracy; Local Government; Higher Education; Assisting on National Security; Women; International Aid & Development; Animal Welfare; and Forests.

Penny Wright, Senator for South Australia:
Attorney General (excluding National Security); Native Title; Veterans Affairs; Social Inclusion; Mental Health; and Heritage.

Larissa Waters; Senator for Queensland:
Environment, Biodiversity & Natural Heritage; Population; Great Barrier Reef & Coral Sea; Cape York; World Heritage; Tourism; and Mining.

Adam Bandt, Member for Melbourne: Employment & Workplace Relations; Emergency Services; Banking; Innovation & Industry, including High Speed Rail; Science & Research; Assisting on Climate and Energy; and House of Representatives Reform.

Mad as cut snakes, the lot of 'em.

[Bradman]

I don't see what the big deal is about what happens to the cows in Indonesia. There's all this talk about 'being humane' to the livestock.

FFS, they all end up dead anyway, I don't imagine the cows Australian abattoirs slaughter enjoy the process all that much more than the ones that go offshore. And the boat trip is hardly a luxury cruise...

You're right in a way. Goes to my point when this rock show blew up a few weeks ago, you can't be half pregnant but'

The slaughter of livestock is as humane as possible and not for humane reasons. A stressed mooc means a poorer quality carcassThe boat trip ( at least to Indonesia) ain't that bad, as it is in the hands (mainly) of highly regulated Australian agencies.

The main problem here was a failure on the part of Livecorp and the MLA, and a complete over-reaction by the minister as a result of a knee jerk campaign by everyone from Balmain basket weavers to doctor's wives. From the producer's point of view you have to understand how Livecorp works. (Now here I'm sort of on thin ice and am dredging my memory).

It works/ed like the old AWB. With the exception that Livecorp's farkups are more incompetence than high level corruption. You pay a levy and they undertake, in most cases, to handle your moocs from the farm gate to almost the dinner plate. Now they fell down at one part of the supply chain, and as part of their charter they do have a responsibility to the producer for that part of the chain (as much as you can have responsibility for a part of the chain in a third world and horribly corrupt country with different cultural perspectives. And baksheesh is very much a part of Muslim culture.) The producers on the whole would have been aware of certain techniques abhorrent to an Australian cattleman but most likely unaware of just how bad it was. But going back to Zat's producing livestock for slaughter for a living gicves you a different perspective to the weaver's and wive's.

That's my two cents worth anyway.

[Zat]

A stressed mooc means a poorer quality carcass.

So the abattoirs there are lowering the quality of their own product. Again, how is this Australia's problem?

A Govt held to randsom by farkin Bob Brown and his lace-panty wearing cohorts..

Don't you mean lace wig?

[Bradman]

A stressed mooc means a poorer quality carcass.

So the abattoirs there are lowering the quality of their own product. Again, how is this Australia's problem?

A Govt held to randsom by farkin Bob Brown and his lace-panty wearing cohorts..

Don't you mean lace wig?

I'm not saying it is, though there was an expectation of traing and equipment (FFS! A branding gate would be cheap and ideal) I was sort of replying to your point about it not being much fun for the mooc in an Australian abbatoir, but that it was in the processor's best interest to have stress free cattle when they went to the great pasture in the sky. Obviously quality is secondary to cheap quantity in Indonesia (note the hygiene conditions in the footage).

[JGK]

Economic debate in Australia will take a turn for the worse once the Greens hold the balance of power in the Senate. Brown may have good intentions but he is economically illiterate. That illiteracy is likely to cost ordinary Australians dearly; many will lose their jobs and their standard of living is likely to fall. It is surprising given their well-developed economic policies that the Greens have managed to avoid careful scrutiny of their party platform. Their industry policy should worry many Australians.

This goes to my previous comment that the Greens don't care about the human cost of forcing through their ideology. Their answer is always to increase taxation to pay for the increased welfare cost of the thousands of people they toss on the dole que.

Of course they will only have the balance of power and get in crazy legislation if the opposition don't vote with the government in the Senate.

[Big Dog]

Of course they will only have the balance of power and get in crazy legislation if the opposition don't vote with the government in the Senate.

Thats pretty naive. With the polls so close the Greens are in an ideal position to coerce the Govt into a quid pro quo situation to get some of their loony left policies adopted.

[JGK]

Not really. The ALP know that no matter what they do that the Greens disagree with, there is no way in the known universe that Brown will side with the MM.

Also, they can't afford an early election because Bandt will almost certainly lose his seat.

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