India v England, 2nd Test, Mumbai, 23-27 November, 2012

Brass Monkey wrote:
It is one of our strengths - spin bowling. We have spin bowlers that can compete with anyone in the world ATM. They extract an inordinate amount of turn and, possibly to a lesser extent, bounce.

Graeme Swann said it was, by a country mile, the pitch most condusive to his bowling that he'd played on in Test cricket. He said with a wry smile, and a smiling nod in agreement from Monty, it reminded him of some of the Northants pitches they used to get. They used to decimate teams including top stars - I've seen it. They're deadly on those pitches.

And yet the ECB insist on handing out punishments for "prepared" wickets, presumably these exact type of ones that produced those two. We aren't going to produce spinners if they have to bowl in a pasture.

Klämmssøn wrote:

And yet the ECB insist on handing out punishments for "prepared" wickets, presumably these exact type of ones that produced those two. We aren't going to produce spinners if they have to bowl in a pasture.

It just hasn't been England's thing, not for the past 50 years. A 14 wicket first day pitch in the West country would go without punishment whilst a 10 wicket first day pitch at our place would be a point dockage. The worst bit being the away spinners would be shite. It was just a difference in calibre. Those days are long gone and with the advent of T20 I expect we'll see more tweakers in England.

Brass Monkey wrote:

taipan wrote:
Well since this is a direct dig at me although Petey boy will insist otherwise, the facts speak otherwise. England are playing a particularly poor Indian team. Does anyone really think that Swann and Panesar would have ripped through an Indian middle order of Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman and Gamguly In their prime?

I'm sure they'd have struggled against Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock as well, but hey ho, we weren't playing them.

But here's a little food for thought.

India are averaging 38 per wicket at home this year which isn't the worst.

Swanesar still took 19 wickets betwixt them, which is some achievement.

It is one of our strengths - spin bowling. We have spin bowlers that can compete with anyone in the world ATM. They extract an inordinate amount of turn and, possibly to a lesser extent, bounce.

Graeme Swann said it was, by a country mile, the pitch most condusive to his bowling that he'd played on in Test cricket. He said with a wry smile, and a smiling nod in agreement from Monty, it reminded him of some of the Northants pitches they used to get. They used to decimate teams including top stars - I've seen it. They're deadly on those pitches.

Yep Dan, and when we toured Englamd we were facing the best seam attack in the world under English conditions. Jimmy and Sturat were about to get their averages under 30 and had been the best in the world for the last 2 years.

Yep Nigel, and we've all seen that was just a one off. Because they're taking stacks in this series. I think it say more about their steep decline that I'm even saying playing two spinners is one of our strengths.

Oh agreed, in India.

taipan wrote:Oh agreed, in India.

In the Subcontinent / UAE. This year they've taken 70 wickets @ 22.81, S/R 51.7...

That's nothing to sniff at.

Brass Monkey wrote:

taipan wrote:Oh agreed, in India.

In the Subcontinent / UAE. This year they've taken 70 wickets @ 22.81, S/R 51.7...

That's nothing to sniff at.

Agreed.

Unfortunately the batsmen have also had problems.

Personally I have a problem with wickets that are spin orientated.

taipan wrote:
Agreed.

Unfortunately the batsmen have also had problems.

Personally I have a problem with wickets that are spin orientated.

That was my point. Our spinners can compete with the opposition spinners, but the batsmen can't. Sort of my whole point. If conditions are favourable to spin bowling, they're pretty useful.

What about ones conducive to seam? It's part of what makes cricket great - different conditions. In a way it's unfair that conditions usually favour the home side *cough* South Africa *cough* but that's why we all admire certain players, that's why we all have different little microcosms that we cherish.

PeterCS wrote:

Henry wrote:Shameful that no English forummers seem to have set the alarm to get up and watch this!

Shameful?

You left no room on your middle-of-the-night Union-Jack-bedecked open-top bus tour, Trev.

All those crates of Spitfire beer you suddenly ordered, lying around everywhere .... nobody could get through the doors.

Can't blame you celebrating with such fervour, though, in your daytime. "Living your life", as you said recently about someone or other absent from the Forum for a bit of shuteye.

Yes I've spent the last 12 hours drunk out of my mind, wrapped in the cross of St George, reading George Dobell's analysis of it all with 'Jerusalem' cranked up to the max. Good times.

Graeme Swann: Monty's comment before the game wrote:

"Come on brother, let's do it, let's win one."

Heh. Loving that shit.

I didn't watch it. We'd have lost if I'd watched it.

I woke up and saw we were chasing 50-odd. Then I fell asleep and had a dream where we lost chasing 50-odd. When I woke up again I thought the dream was real.

Anyway. That Pietersen fella, eh?

I love that guy. I might start a thread on him. Shall I? I don't know. I think he deserves a thread. But if that thread only got 3 replies and fell off the front page, I don't think it would be the thread he deserves.

Maybe someone else should start the thread. Someone who's respected on the forum. Someone who'll get a good KP thread going.

We just need two threads - "KP, what a legend" and "KP, what a twat" - keep both as permanent Rikkis as they will be added to on a regular basis!

Matt Prior's pic, under the heading "'Re-integration' complete"

Good stuff.

Chivalry Augustus wrote:
Maybe someone else should start the thread. Someone who's respected on the forum. Someone who'll get a good KP thread going./

Current leaderboard in the KP thread starting stakes:

Henry: 8
Red: 4
LLL: 4
Taipan: 3
Dello: 2
Chivlary Augustus: 2

Henry wrote:

Matt Prior's pic, under the heading "'Re-integration' complete"

Good stuff.

Is Monty having a wank? He is left handed.

Henry wrote:

Matt Prior's pic, under the heading "'Re-integration' complete"

Good stuff.

very funny

Monty's giving his best 'bedroom eyes' in the background there.....

Brass Monkey wrote:

Chivalry Augustus wrote:
Maybe someone else should start the thread. Someone who's respected on the forum. Someone who'll get a good KP thread going./

Current leaderboard in the KP thread starting stakes:

Henry: 8
Red: 4
LLL: 4
Taipan: 3
Dello: 2
Chivlary Augustus: 2

All mine are sh*t.

I had Dello in mind as my Pietersen Thread Starter Pop Idol.

Maybe we could audition.

Chivalry Augustus wrote:
All mine are sh*t.

I had Dello in mind as my Pietersen Thread Starter Pop Idol.

Maybe we could audition.

Dello's the obvious, lowbrow choice for your thread starter. I thought you defied convention a little more than that. I mean, if you want purest abundance, encrusted in smarm: you should ask fish-lipped Rob I to reappear. If you want desperate prolificism with a side order of needy, obsessive hatred that rivals Red vs SA: choose Trevor Mudge. If you want to think out of the box a little, ask vilkrang or maybe BBB. If you want amusement in the style of pissing down someone's back and telling them it's raining, ask DJ_Smerk.

Loads of f*cking choice, you predictable Shirley Temple.

Brass Monkey wrote:

Chivalry Augustus wrote:
All mine are sh*t.

I had Dello in mind as my Pietersen Thread Starter Pop Idol.

Maybe we could audition.

Dello's the obvious, lowbrow choice for your thread starter. I thought you defied convention a little more than that. I mean, if you want purest abundance, encrusted in smarm: you should ask fish-lipped Rob I to reappear. If you want desperate prolificism with a side order of needy, obsessive hatred that rivals Red vs SA: choose Trevor Mudge. If you want to think out of the box a little, ask vilkrang or maybe BBB. If you want amusement in the style of pissing down someone's back and telling them it's raining, ask DJ_Smerk.

Loads of f*cking choice, you predictable Shirley Temple.

Dello likes Pietersen. I can't have some non-KP fanboy starting a thread. I want somebody who's really gonna get in their and deepthroat KP. Somebody who's gonna rim him good. Can't have a slightly queer Welshie or a crazy Aussie woman who has displayed no cricketing knowledge do that, can I?

Allan D could be your man.

Or perhaps Buckaroo, in his arse chaps.

Chivalry Augustus wrote:
Dello likes Pietersen. I can't have some non-KP fanboy starting a thread. I want somebody who's really gonna get in their and deepthroat KP. Somebody who's gonna rim him good. Can't have a slightly queer Welshie or a crazy Aussie woman who has displayed no cricketing knowledge do that, can I?

DJ SMERK would bring the chirps. He'd chirp the f*cker.

I agree, you can't have Red do it - it'd be like allowing a toddler to do a 45-minute presentation on the last Fiscal year for health food shops.

But, Dello? There's that whole 'try to be aloof when wanting to scream I LOVE YOU' undercurrent. It becomes a little seedy sometimes. You wonder when he's going to take his danger-wanking too far. You could really harm him, asking him to do something like that.

Oh, just get Laz to do it. At least you know there'll be enough cock-slap-you-in-the-face homoeroticism to last us all through to tough winter.

taipan wrote:

PeterCS wrote:Well, it seems it's not ALWAYS seam that wins in India, as some insist.

Maybe there IS an argument after all for playing to your strengths, and the players in form.


.

Well since this is a direct dig at me although Petey boy will insist otherwise, the facts speak otherwise. England are playing a particularly poor Indian team. Does anyone really think that Swann and Panesar would have ripped through an Indian middle order of Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman and Gamguly In their prime?

Yerwott?

Your confident statement I "will insist otherwise" is a whacking assumption.

The only thing I would deny there is that I was personalising a particular point at issue (which on track record seems rather to be your speciality than mine!).

In other words, it wasn't a "direct dig at you", because I quite deliberately didn't identify anyone.

It was an indirect reference to that point of discussion (with which btw you might remember furri happened to agree with my suggestion!) - others were free to associate the opposing viewpoint with you if they so chose, if their memory stretched back that far, ... and if it mattered.


That actual point at issue - arising between the first two Tests in India - was NOT as you now state it - whether reintroducing Panesar to form a spin duet with Swann would have mashed the best batting lineup India had ever put out when they were all in their golden prime ... or for that matter whether Swann + Panesar was an absolutely spiffingly momentously ATG combination ,,,,

The actual point at issue was, given the present conditions, given the present relative strengths of England's spin option(s) against its seam options, England should select to its strengths, hence in this case a very much in-form Panesar should be used, or rather - as a point of inflexible ideology ("seam wins in India, not spin") England should persist in putting out as many out-of-form off-the-pace seamers as it could.

I was making and repeating a point that to have the best chances of success, you have to think flexibly, shrewdly, and select according to form and conditions, not according to dogma.

Brass Monkey wrote:

Graeme Swann: Monty's comment before the game wrote:

"Come on brother, let's do it, let's win one."

Heh. Loving that shit.

Noice. If only the Pom crew were always that relaxed, determined, humorous and united in team spirit!

grouse effort from the Montesaurus, KP and chef....ignominy for the bannies and ekohli who ordered the pitch he wanted...