Re: India v England, 4th Test, Nagpur, 13-17 December, 2012

by Henry Tue 11 Dec 2012, 22:30

Yeah it's obvious that for a lot of them, they're just going through the motions. Dhoni's captaincy is non-existent these days. He sets pretty much the same field for every batsman (give or take a bat pad or two) and just waits for a mistake. When he was first made captain, he made things happen. He'd set unusual fields, and make canny bowling changes.

by Basil Tue 11 Dec 2012, 22:34

He has no idea how to build pressure. Take a look at the field he sets for any new batsman, there's invariably a sweeper at point and/or square leg creating enough gaps for a new batsman to knock the ball into. I'd want to throttle him if I was an Indian spin bowler.

But skippers rarely decide these things in isolation these days. What is Fletcher's input? We know what he's taking out - about £250k a year, but what return is the Indian side getting?

by horace Tue 11 Dec 2012, 22:47

I expect the bannies to level the series between the two fading powers of cricket

by Brass Monkey Tue 11 Dec 2012, 22:55

Basil wrote:He has no idea how to build pressure.

It must be difficult to build pressure with those fielders.

by Henry Tue 11 Dec 2012, 22:57

To be fair, Negs and Cook were/are hardly bold, brave attacking captains either. I think in general most captains these days are sh*t. Clarke may be an exception.

by Brass Monkey Tue 11 Dec 2012, 23:00

Clarke's a bit of a shining light...

Meanwhile, there's some pressure building and it must be said, it's not on England:

Former India selectors, two of them part of the selection committee as recently as the World Twenty20 in September this year, have called for drastic changes to the team they themselves built, strongly criticising the captaincy of MS Dhoni.

Mohinder Amarnath, who was asked to leave the selection committee under speculation that he didn't comply with the BCCI's demands, has been the strongest voice in asking for Dhoni to be sacked. "Dhoni doesn't find a place in the team," Amarnath said. "What has he done for the team in the last one year? The selection committee does not have guts to remove Dhoni."

Amarnath said he was not bitter about his removal from the selection panel. "I am not against Dhoni," he said. "It is not that I do not like him. But we should look at it from a broader perspective. It is important to look at current performance of players rather than past performances."

Was that a bit 'Red'? Oh well...

by Henry Tue 11 Dec 2012, 23:05

It's easy for them to call for changes now that they're not in the hot seat. The changes should have been made as far back as the England tour last year- When those guys were still calling the shots.

And what's the new chairman of selectors done? Dropped their only have decent fast bowler, and picked a leg spinner who's averaging 48 with the ball in Ranji cricket. The REAL problems- Sehwag, Dhoni, and Gambhir, remain in the team. And there's still the massive elephant in the room which is the in-decline Sachin Tendulkar.

by Brass Monkey Tue 11 Dec 2012, 23:12

Henry wrote:It's easy for them to call for changes now that they're not in the hot seat. The changes should have been made as far back as the England tour last year- When those guys were still calling the shots.

Two points I suppose.

1. "Mohinder Amarnath, who was asked to leave the selection committee under speculation that he didn't comply with the BCCI's demands"

We don't know what demands he didn't comply with - could be that he wanted Dhoni changed.

2. With hindsight it's easy to say that Dhoni should've been sacked then. They'd done OKish up until that point and were surely allowed a poor tour.

by The One Tue 11 Dec 2012, 23:44

before the england tour india could well lay claim to being the best test side in the world. not that there was much competition

now, its more like trying to be better than the kiwis or the windies. the problem really is the quality of replacements. no one is crying out to come into the team, save rahane

by The One Tue 11 Dec 2012, 23:46

the problem for india was that its golden period was one where the batting set up scores of 500-600 plus for the bowlers to bowl at. that was never going to last long

what we need is a bowling line-up that can make 350 competitive. and as usual we don't have that yet

by Henry Tue 11 Dec 2012, 23:58

The One wrote:before the england tour india could well lay claim to being the best test side in the world. not that there was much competition

now, its more like trying to be better than the kiwis or the windies. the problem really is the quality of replacements. no one is crying out to come into the team, save rahane

Really? Tiwary has been piling on the runs (although granted he s now injured) Rohit averages 60 in first class cricket (maybe he's just crap at ODIs?), Badrinath has been averaging 60 over a 10 year first class career, Rahane as you mentioned.....

What else do they have to do? England and Australia would LOVE to have guys waiting in the wings who average 60 in first class cricket. Sehwag, Gambhir, and Tendulkar are failing time and time again, and these guys keep making stacks of first class runs. If they're not going to be picked now then they really are going to have to wait until the guys in the team announce they will be retiring, because the selectors have long proved they're too gutless to make major changes to the batting order.

by horace Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:03

Henry wrote:
The One wrote:before the england tour india could well lay claim to being the best test side in the world. not that there was much competition

now, its more like trying to be better than the kiwis or the windies. the problem really is the quality of replacements. no one is crying out to come into the team, save rahane

Really? Tiwary has been piling on the runs (although granted he s now injured) Rohit averages 60 in first class cricket (maybe he's just crap at ODIs?), Badrinath has been averaging 60 over a 10 year first class career, Rahane as you mentioned.....

What else do they have to do? England and Australia would LOVE to have guys waiting in the wings who average 60 in first class cricket. Sehwag, Gambhir, and Tendulkar are failing time and time again, and these guys keep making stacks of first class runs. If they're not going to be picked now then they really are going to have to wait until the guys in the team announce they will be retiring, because the selectors have long proved they're too gutless to make major changes to the batting order.

...bit like how the poms persisted with Broad, Bell and fat sam for too long to the detriment of english cricket...Oz persisted with underperforming punter, bung and k snr for far too long

by The One Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:03

ravindra jadeja has made 3 triples in the last year. doesn't mean he is one of the top 6-7 batsmen in india

rahane is crying to be picked. i am not so sure about tiwary and especially not badrinath. anyway the real problem is the bowlers, and no one stands out. ffs chawla averages in the mid 40s in ranji and he is picked

by The One Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:06

if we have to rely on 1st innings scores of 600 plus every single time we are not going anywhere

by Henry Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:08

Well you CERTAINLY can't be sure if you don't pick them. A lot of players in India seem to get judged by the odd ODI and T20 innings. Pujara thankfully wasn't, but he had an aura around him due to the huge scores he consistently piled up in under age and first class cricket.

by Henry Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:15

I would also say that India's recent cricketing success has been based on bold selections- Tendulkar being picked at 16, and two years later they of made him an opener in ODIs. He never looked back. Playing Sehwag as a test opener, picking Harbhajan at 17, taking a punt on a raw but rapid left armer named Zahher Khan back in 2000, making Dhoni ODI and T20 captain....

They were all bold, brave selections that were questioned at the time, but ultimately paid off (eventually, for some). That kind of stuff needs to happen again. They need to snap out of the comfort zone and get creative again. The 'new, new India', perhaps.

by The One Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:16

thats why you have selectors and not computers

no one can convince me jadeja has a 15 year test battting career for india, even if he averages 70 in ranji in the last 2 years

though i agree we push our test cricketers in based on limited overs cricket before FC cricket. no way the likes of raina, kohli, vijay should have been pushed in before rahane

by The One Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:18

i dont agree that we dont blood cricketers early any more. most of india's cricketers have been drafted into the test team before the age of 24. its just that most of them have not been very good recently. the last really good young talent we had was sehwag, and that was in 2001

by The One Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:22

ideally i would like 2 'seniors' in the top 7 right now. pujara and in some way kohli have shown they deserve a spot. out of the other 3 'seniors' maybe one has to go. gambhir would be my pick

sehwag
rahane
pujara
srt
kohli
tiwary/rohit
dhoni/saha

would be my top 7. i dont want an absolutely raw top 7. this is assuming of course sehwag and srt can be among the top 7 batsmen. it would be india's loss if they cannot and need to be replaced

by Henry Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:23

It's not just about blooding young cricketers. Te selectors saw that those guys had talent, and stuck with them.

Kohli's good. I reckon this series is just a blip for him. He'll be alright. He could potentially be India's next Ganguly. Pujara is good, Yadav has talent, Varun Aaron has talent (let's hope they can get fit), Rahane and Tiwary are keen and know how to make big scores, Rohit has the most talent out of all the young batsmen if he can just keep working hard....

There will always be good young talent in India. Give Kohli the captaincy, get a good Coach like Tom Moody and give him license to make changes if he sees fit, and build a new era.

by The One Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:27

not so sure about aaron and rohit. the former has pace but not much else, the latter has the potential but is still too loose for international cricket. lot to prove

too early for kohli to get captaincy, he still needs to convince everyone he is test match material. one series where he averaged mid-30s in australia (albeit amongst india's best 2 there) and one hundred against the kiwis at home. poor otherwise

by horace Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:28

Greg Chappell continues to look better all the time...the renewal he saw as being required was deferred too long

by The One Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:29

not sure why india gets into this cycle of good coach-bad coach. wright-chappell-kirsten-fletcher. coincidence or just bad picks

if the team does well everyone assumes the coach is responsible. if it does badly the whole system is to be blamed. not so black and white

by Henry Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:29

The One wrote:ideally i would like 2 'seniors' in the top 7 right now. pujara and in some way kohli have shown they deserve a spot. out of the other 3 'seniors' maybe one has to go. gambhir would be my pick

sehwag
rahane
pujara
srt
kohli
tiwary/rohit
dhoni/saha

would be my top 7. i dont want an absolutely raw top 7. this is assuming of course sehwag and srt can be among the top 7 batsmen. it would be india's loss if they cannot and need to be replaced

The problem with those 'seniors' is that they have too much power and influence. If they don't want to do fitness exercises, they wont. If they don't want to bat in the nets, they wont. They are basically a law unto themselves. No coach or selector is allowed/brave enough to tell them to fall into line. It's not a great example to be setting for young players coming in.

The reason why I think India has always been one of the best under 19s sides but only briefly the best main side, is because in the under 19s everyone is treated equally, and no one feels they are 'entitled' to do what they like, when they like.

by The One Wed 12 Dec 2012, 00:29

horace wrote:Greg Chappell continues to look better all the time...the renewal he saw as being required was deferred too long

has he ever done well as a coach. anywhere

what a f*cking disaster

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