England v India, ICCCT Final, Edgbaston, 23 June, 2013

Chivalry Augustus wrote:

Henry wrote:Pietersen for Bell and Stokes/Napier for Bresnan and we'd be decent.

Pietersen for anyone. Finn for Bresnan. Anyone for Buttler the hack.

Anyone for Bell, anyone for Bresnan, anyone for Buttler, on present form at least.

And absoutely anyone for Giles.

Brass Monkey wrote:Don't get me wrong, we lost it because our top three are pretty limited unless they can face a shedload of balls and we pick an absolute unequivocal passenger in Timothy Thomas Bresnan who is held in such incredibly high regard that it defies all belief. This England side could be a good one, were it not for this. Possibly two, maybe three changes and we'll be pretty decent.

Aye, the Gary kneejerkometer is pointing at Bresnan at the moment. Most expensive bowler, 2 from 4 balls at the death and 4 overthrows conceded in the field. He also got run out and was the most expensive bowler against the Kiwis in the (effective) Quarter Final.

Finn was a little expensive in the semi, but he did get Amla, the 2nd rated ODI batsman in the world out. Finn is 2nd in the ODI bowler rankings himself, despite missing games in this tournament, while Bressylad is down in 28th.

With the weather possibly turning this into a shortened game you would have thought Finn (8th in T20 rankings) would trump Bressylad (32nd).

Brass Monkey wrote:

PeterCS wrote:Looking on the bright side, it might help to shorten Giles' credibility and contract, as Generalissimo Catastrophic. So even this cloudburst may have a silver lining.

All reports are that they couldn't be happier with Mr. Gashley Piles.

beamer wrote:The King of Spain's got a contract for life, including the Test side when Flower moves on. He will have to get whitewashed twice in the Ashes and go out of the World Cup to Afghanistan and Bermuda before they will consider handing him so much as a written warning.

I'd rather have Strangler Saatchi than Ashley Giles. He might at least put the wind up a few of the dozier members of the side.

Gary 111 wrote:
With the weather possibly turning this into a shortened game you would have thought Finn (8th in T20 rankings) would trump Bressylad (32nd).

This is the thing. 'They' were all mentioning 'the reverse swing' that Bresnan was getting and how that was the deciding factor in his selection. It was like listening to 5 Justin Biebers talking amongst themselves. Stunning old stuff, it is really, the regard in which he is held. That's a bowling average of 36.36 he now owns, in 75 ODIs. He hasn't even reached three figures in the wickets column. He's not inexpensive, he's not penetrative, he's a bit of a duffer in the field and is nowhere near an all-rounder in this format, he's had so little influence on England's final scores. Yet, he seems to be a shoo-in, regardless.

PeterCS wrote:
I'd rather have Strangler Saatchi than Ashley Giles. He might at least put the wind up a few of the dozier members of the side.

But they'd all have to listen to music that he approves of - could be a bit divisive.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

Useless c*nts. That was beyond South Africa-esque choking.

That was a whole new level of ineptitude.

Henry wrote:That was f*cking ridiculous from Buttler.

The finisher? Are you sure? I thought he was the second coming. The player we've been crying out for.

15 runs @ 3. What a tournament. What a champion.

Wow!!! So 20 needed off 16 balls with 6 wkts in hand and they bottled it??? FMD.

Dello wrote:

Henry wrote:That was f*cking ridiculous from Buttler.

The finisher? Are you sure? I thought he was the second coming. The player we've been crying out for.

15 runs @ 3. What a tournament. What a champion.

Notice that Trevor "Somerset" Mudge, didn't call for his head. I'm all for sticking with young 'uns to give themselves a chance to bed in, but he's been awful at best.

Dello wrote:

Henry wrote:That was f*cking ridiculous from Buttler.

The finisher? Are you sure? I thought he was the second coming. The player we've been crying out for.

15 runs @ 3. What a tournament. What a champion.

I think Buttler should be persevered with. His hitting talent is such that he could become one of the best ODI / T20 batsmen in the world, and he's got time on his side. But he clearly needs to develop his game, against spin and how he rotates the strike and starts an innings. But his form for Somerset and a couple of his knocks against NZ suggest there is plenty of potential.

He needs to be hugging onto Bruce French like he was a life raft, because he can't keep for shit. He needs a lot of work. A lot.

Gary 111 wrote:

Dello wrote:

Henry wrote:That was f*cking ridiculous from Buttler.

The finisher? Are you sure? I thought he was the second coming. The player we've been crying out for.

15 runs @ 3. What a tournament. What a champion.

I think Buttler should be persevered with. His hitting talent is such that he could become one of the best ODI / T20 batsmen in the world, and he's got time on his side. But he clearly needs to develop his game, against spin and how he rotates the strike and starts an innings. But his form for Somerset and a couple of his knocks against NZ suggest there is plenty of potential.

He averages 11.6 in 14 ODIs. His T20 average is a slightly better 27ish at an impressive strike rate so maybe has done enough in that format, but in 50 over cricket we can't carry a player who comes off once every 10 games. Giving him the gloves as well probably puts too much expectation on him at this stage.

I still think we're not far off from being a very good ODI team. India are superb at the moment, and maybe with one duff selection and a couple of injured players we could have just had that bit of extra class to see this through. My first XI would be:

Cook
Pietersen
Trott
Root
Morgan
Bopara
Buttler
Swann
Broad
Finn
Anderson

Batting down to No.9, four class bowlers and 2 useful part-timers, some good fielders and explosive hitting from KP at the top and No's 5-8.

We need to find some cover bowlers, our front line bowlers can't play every JAMODI but the current backup is crapular.

Anyway, we can forget about this format for a while now, there's something more important coming up for English cricket (not those two Snoozer JAMITTs!)

beamer wrote:

Gary 111 wrote:

Dello wrote:

Henry wrote:That was f*cking ridiculous from Buttler.

The finisher? Are you sure? I thought he was the second coming. The player we've been crying out for.

15 runs @ 3. What a tournament. What a champion.

I think Buttler should be persevered with. His hitting talent is such that he could become one of the best ODI / T20 batsmen in the world, and he's got time on his side. But he clearly needs to develop his game, against spin and how he rotates the strike and starts an innings. But his form for Somerset and a couple of his knocks against NZ suggest there is plenty of potential.

He averages 11.6 in 14 ODIs. His T20 average is a slightly better 27ish at an impressive strike rate so maybe has done enough in that format, but in 50 over cricket we can't carry a player who comes off once every 10 games. Giving him the gloves as well probably puts too much expectation on him at this stage.

He's only 22 - so I think its too early to judge him from just 11 ODI innings. It takes some time for some players to make the step up. We should re-assess after another 20 or so knocks.

And his domestic List A record really is exceptional - in 58 innings he's averaging 49.17 at an incredible strike rate of 123.8. None of his competitors have performed to anywhere near this level domestically

I actually think giving him the gloves helps take the pressure off at this stage - he's filling a role in the team and his batting is a bonus. I don't think his keeping is any worse than his recent rivals - Kieswetter and Bairstow similarly are some way off being accomplished keepers.

I tend to agree. I'd persevere with Buttler now I've thought about it. He has come in regularly in situations where he has to chase the game. He is a talented hitter but he's playing rashly. England's use of him is brainless. His short term failures are not deserving of the same ruthlessness as the long term failures of Bell and Bresnan.

Are we watching the same bloke keeping wicket? It's only his obvious athleticism that gets him anywhere near the ball. His footwork is ridiculay. His general gloving is slapdash. I agree his match situations have hardly been ideal for batting, however.

He's clearly got talent, and a keeper can be developed from shaky foundations as we've seen before. Just think he needs to be given a break for now in terms of the longer white ball format.

He has always come in under pressure needing quick runs, which is partly due to the top three or four scoring relatively slowly (but in their favour, sticking around for most of the innings) and Morgan's lack of form. But he hasn't thrived on those situations, with one exception. He's far from being a NTPFEA in any form of the game but T20Is are probably his niche for the time being.

Brass Monkey wrote:Are we watching the same bloke keeping wicket? It's only his obvious athleticism that gets him anywhere near the ball. His footwork is ridiculay. His general gloving is slapdash. I agree his match situations have hardly been ideal for batting, however.

He needs to improve with the gloves, but we've seen keepers like Prior and Stewart develop before in England colours. I don't particularly rate Kieswetter or Bairstow's keeping at this stage either.

There are better keepers out there - Prior, Foster, Read, etc. but they're not long-term options and haven't performed well in ODI cricket in the past with the bat, despite getting a lot more chances than Buttler (11 innings thus far).

As I say, he needs to start hanging around with Bruce French, every single day. It's strange Davies doesn't get a mention. He, incidentally, didn't get a chance (8 ODIs, not all together). He was hardly abysmal - average of 30, S/R 105 - basically being told to sacrifice his wicket by knocking the shit out of it early (ironic, considering the current top three scenario).

He's been the business this season, averaging 58.33 in his 7 matches, striking at 130.

beamer wrote:We need to find some cover bowlers, our front line bowlers can't play every JAMODI but the current backup is crapular.

I agree, hopefully Dirtbag has been consigned to the rubbish bin, and i'm not convinced by Woakes. Bresnan also perhaps on borrowed time.

Not sure there's a whole lot out there in reserve, although Tredwell has done well as back-up for Swann. Perhaps if we want to build squad depth some other reserves we could look at are Onions (if Anderson is rested), Rankin (for Finn) or Willey (for Broad). If Tremlett's fitness and Meaker's form improves they might be worth a game or two as well.

Anyone else out there?

Willey? Not sure about that. If anyone should be given a chance, I'd say it's **sighs** Chris Liddle. He's been consistently good for a couple of years. Otherwise, you're looking at dobbers like Rushworth.

Brass Monkey wrote:As I say, he needs to start hanging around with Bruce French, every single day. It's strange Davies doesn't get a mention. He, incidentally, didn't get a chance (8 ODIs, not all together). He was hardly abysmal - average of 30, S/R 105 - basically being told to sacrifice his wicket by knocking the shit out of it early (ironic, considering the current top three scenario).

He's been the business this season, averaging 58.33 in his 7 matches, striking at 130.

Maybe Davies is getting back in the frame - I think he had a very poor season last year? Is he playing as a pinch hitter or middle order bat for Surrey these days? Not sure I want to see us experimenting with another pinch-hitter.

He was unlucky to be dropped in the run-up to the World Cup, one streaky 40, when I think he was dropped three or four times, and then dropped for the rest of the winter.

Brass Monkey wrote:Willey? Not sure about that. If anyone should be given a chance, I'd say it's **sighs** Chris Liddle. He's been consistently good for a couple of years. Otherwise, you're looking at dobbers like Rushworth.

Not seen much of him, but he's young(ish), quick(ish), can hold a bat and is one of the few English bowlers going at under 5 an over in List A cricket this year.

Gary 111 wrote:Maybe Davies is getting back in the frame - I think he had a very poor season last year? Is he playing as a pinch hitter or middle order bat for Surrey these days? Not sure I want to see us experimenting with another pinch-hitter.

He was unlucky to be dropped in the run-up to the World Cup, one streaky 40, when I think he was dropped three or four times, and then dropped for the rest of the winter.

Yeah, his head was battered after the whole Tom Maynard thing. He even turned down England tours last winter, which shows that they still hold him in high regard. He's still opening the batting in limited overs cricket, but that doesn't mean he can't bat at six or seven for England. Averaging 45 in FC cricket this season, as well, so he's in top nick.