Re: The U.K. Election thread

[Ethics? The Gall!]

... but I don't hold out much hope of getting a government that looks after me and mine, The sooner upper middle class and upper class men aren't the majority of politicians the better...

time you made a career change then

[Lindsay no.2]

L#2:

Similarly, FWIW, I think it was a fair and decent counter from you. Bits and pieces....

1) I did carefully say "of some substance". I am certainly not going to claim he has the gravitas of a Mandela, a Churchill, or even an Obama (Obama's problems are of a different kind, so let's leave that there). But then, very few are. And worse: often beware those politicians of granite, marble, iron or steel (supposedly) colossal status .... such as Josef Djugashvili. Or Iron Ladies.

The point I was trying to make is that I am (pleasantly) surprised how he appears to have grown to "to-be-taken-seriously" stature. That may not be very much, but it's a distance. Don't take my word for it: Crosby and team have eased back on the punch-a-contemptible-muppet campaign, not because they have come to any moral sense(s), but because it was losing not winning votes: and emphasising Miliband's resilient and resolute qualities rather than his obvious suited-and-booted shortcomings.

2) "Cain & Abel". Well, that's the point of Fallon's "knifed his brother in the back, so will knife the country in the back" smear. (Incidentally, precisely echoing the Nazi myth of the glorious homeland being knifed in the back by ... you've guessed it, the treacherous Jew-Communist-Democrat which they poisoned the political air and water with in the early 1920s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth ).

As far as I see it, the competition for the Labour leadership after Brown was very much out in the open. You can jib at the Trade Unions' preference for Ed over David, and the unacceptability of the Unions having any such political power. But it was clearly profiled as a contest between a foursquare staunch Blairite, David, who clearly expected to be anointed leader (with what seems to me an Eton old-boy type of sense of entitlement more often associated with the Conservative Party: Cameron, Osborne, BoJo, etc.), and his brother, who made it clear he wanted to break with the more Thatcher-orientated aspects of Blair's "New Labour" Project. The fact that he was part of the Brown government, doesn't necessarily label his learning from major mistakes as slimily opportunistic - call me naive, if you like.

That David lost, might well mean that Labour loses this election - probably more complex causes and reasons, though.

But that the rift between two brothers has clearly still not entirely healed, to me, from all I've seen, and all I've seen of David's attitudes, demeanour and statements, says far less about Ed's (as the Tories would have you believe) skulking, birthright-stealing subterfuge - the Tories know a lot about the "divine" rights of primogeniture - than about David's presumptive arrogance and personal immaturity in an ability to accept first the contest, then that he was not Labour's crowned prince after all. ~ He stated he was off, and off he went. It still seems like a monster sulk.

3) I can't really accept that Miliband (Ed) simply needs to man up in the face of any shit thrown at him. That tends to blame him excessively: further insult to injurious insult. If Ken Clarke and Michael Portillo call Crosby's tactics "distasteful" and "unacceptable" (they bit their tongue on "disgusting", but their faces said it), I think you can take it that Crosby's shit is not the standard fare of dodgy electioneering. It brings politics into further disrepute. And is a toxic brand.

4) "Westminster lifer". Well, that's precisely the line the SNP leadership has indoctrinated itself to pump out at every available opportunity. The SNP as a machine is certainly very thoroughly drilled in its "lines": but admiring rigid discipline in party organisations as an end in itself has a rather ambiguous history, I think.

To me, it's less about a diseased location - "Westminster" - than a style of politics: too party-line, too dogmatic, not representative enough, not responsive enough, ruthless in pursuing its own power interests as a party, careerist also individually, devious, mendacious. The problem then is that, to me, the current SNP leadership itself falls down on at least 6 of those 8 points. And falls down very badly on five of them.

If you think I am barking up strange trees, I could give evidence, but not here.

5) I similarly can't go into Brown guilt, tsunamis, subprime mortgages, excessive levels of credit, insufficient regulation of financial institutions, and all that here. Vincent Cable saw it all coming (book "The Storm", 2008), and had many of the remedies. Sadly, he's been a lamed duck in the last five years. Whatever you think of him. Personally, I think he's one of the UK's finest economic minds - he wasn't Shell's chief economist for nothing - and if I could suggest one thing to Labour at the moment, it would be to have Ed Balls kidnapped and locked away for 5 years, and offer Cable a monumental bribe to take his place. (jk)

Sorry for delayed response Peter. I did draft one at the weekend, which almost passed for being cogent and erudite. Unfortunately it must've taken me too long to compose though, as when I hit 'Send' it told me I'd timed out or some such rejection and the note was lost for all eternity.

I'll forego trying to replicate what I'd written. Suffice to say that whilst I totally get your points and what you're driving at - I have a slightly different take on some of your arguments (as you do with mine no doubt). However, I do agree with you that Crosby is a vile piece of shit. I thought advisors of his ilk had been consigned to the past - it appears not. Well, if the Tories persist with him and his tactics then hopefully it'll cost them dear.

You say potato, I say potato. Let's call the whole thing off?

[PeterCS]

Do you say tomayto?

Arr-um. I wasn't particularly wanting to get into a scrap with ya. My first contribution on this thread was mainly prompted by the swipes at Miliband, and equations of any party with any other (which tends always to favour the most hardnosed conservative right, in my experience - if all parties, all politicians, all policies are presented as equally bad/corrupt/quntish/..., then why not follow your short-circuit instincts and go with whatever is best for your pocket now, however short-term, and whatever other values or considerations or future consequences).

Was clear, I hope, that I don't see Miliband with any starry eyes (in any case, star-struckness towards politicians is, I think, a bad sign generally - see the glib hand-clapping sanctification of Ms Sturgeon among many in England who should know better than their own distant naivety: and no doubt would, if they looked a bit harder). But there are far, far worse than Miliband, I think.

And then, well yes, I did try to address your counters with counter-counters of my own. But I'm happy to call it quits: particularly as it's not really about which of us has the arguably better lines!

Oh, and no need to apologise for a tardy reply. Online forum discussions generally work like that, at best: and often as not, fizzle down or drop out altogether.

[Lindsay no.2]

You win on the best lines - and if you continue to do so I will have no option but to flounce out of this forum like David Milibumhole did to the USA.

[Growler]

Take my advice people ........






......... you know it makes sense.

[lardbucket]

Sorry for delayed response ... I did draft one at the weekend, which almost passed for being cogent and erudite. Unfortunately it must've taken me too long to compose though, as when I hit 'Send' it told me I'd timed out or some such rejection and the note was lost for all eternity.

Happens a lot! If you do type a karticle, my tip (having suffered your fate above a few times) would be to block/copy (control-C) said karticle for subsequent copy/paste (control-V) before hitting send; then at least you get that second go if it disappears into the ether.

[taipan]

Sorry for delayed response ... I did draft one at the weekend, which almost passed for being cogent and erudite. Unfortunately it must've taken me too long to compose though, as when I hit 'Send' it told me I'd timed out or some such rejection and the note was lost for all eternity.

Happens a lot! If you do type a karticle, my tip (having suffered your fate above a few times) would be to block/copy (control-C) said karticle for subsequent copy/paste (control-V) before hitting send; then at least you get that second go if it disappears into the ether.

Luckily I don't have this problem.

[JGK]

So who won?

[beamer]

So who won?

There's another week and a half of campaigning/bullshitting to go before we find out... may take a few weeks after that to come up with a workable solution, with the two main parties level in the polls and both likely to be pretty much wiped out in Scotland.

[lardbucket]

Sorry for delayed response ... I did draft one at the weekend, which almost passed for being cogent and erudite. Unfortunately it must've taken me too long to compose though, as when I hit 'Send' it told me I'd timed out or some such rejection and the note was lost for all eternity.

Happens a lot! If you do type a karticle, my tip (having suffered your fate above a few times) would be to block/copy (control-C) said karticle for subsequent copy/paste (control-V) before hitting send; then at least you get that second go if it disappears into the ether.

Luckily I don't have this problem.

Everyone has their own problems!

[Merlin]

So who won?

You, as a fellow punter, will not be pleased to know that the bookies are
raking in the cash here on the result ....
You can bet on just about any connotation, number of seats, majority by which said seat was won ...
You name it, they're offering it!

The Sturgeon Virgin (not) seems to be attracting a few Sassenach's £££ north of the border.
Cameron and the Millipede lock horns (or dicks, depending on your viewpoint) on a daily basis,
Clegg the Peg limps around blubbing like a lost puppy, Farage the "migrants barrage" keeps supping
his pint for every camera pointed at him, whilst the "also rans" trample the streets for their 15 minutes of glory.

Parliament will be hung - of that there is no doubt.
But it will all depend on whether the people will fall for the marriage made in hell -
The Virgin (ScotsNP) and the Millipede (Socialist) - which, essentially, will totally f**k up the UK completely
and set us back into the dark ages once more (ala the Brown/Balls era) where borrowing to the hilt will be
the order of the day ...for every day thereafter until the UK acquires the same status as the Greeks.
Viz., lower than the lowest of the low financial rating in the entire world.

My money's on the Virgin securing over 70 seats north of the border.
It's a safe bet!

[taipan]

So you suggest holding off on buying sterling?

[Merlin]

So you suggest holding off on buying sterling?

Don't touch anything to do with the UK gilts, stocks, shares etc- sterling specifically -
unless and until Cameron is returned to Downing Street.
If the Labour/SNP take over the government, I'd suggest selling everything you
have that is UK related.  Honestly.
The result will undoubtedly be the ultimate break up of the Union, the coffers will run dry
by 2017 and borrowing from the IMF will reach staggering heights, eclipsing that of the Brown/Balls collapse.

[taipan]

So you suggest holding off on buying sterling?

Don't touch anything to do with the UK gilts, stocks, shares etc- sterling specifically -
unless and until Cameron is returned to Downing Street.
If the Labour/SNP take over the government, I'd suggest selling everything you
have that is UK related.  Honestly.
The result will undoubtedly be the ultimate break up of the Union, the coffers will run dry
by 2017 and borrowing from the IMF will reach staggering heights, eclipsing that of the Brown/Balls collapse.

Its running at 18.50:1 today

[Lindsay no.2]

Peter CS, I don't want to kick off with you again... :-)

But I couldn't resist putting the front page of today's I on here.

According to the I, it seems like Eddie Baby is resorting to the maxim of, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Which, given his creep into street speak, dropping of t's and general slang-isms is probably as good a phrase for him to parrot as any.

Next thing you know he'll be out on the street lobbing bricks at cops just to show he's down with the yoots. Peace out.

[taipan]

You have mielie pap in pomland?

[PeterCS]

We have a lot of meeja pap. As I suppose do most countries.


L#2: I'll wait to see what the giant crash-splash headline is supposed to portend.

It's strange there seems no mention at all of this trail in The Independent - the i's mother ship and grown-up paper. Which is a lot bigger and more comprehensive, so you might expect some sign of the same story there.

Which makes me wonder if the i is desperately trumpeting some sort of scoop for itself, which may be more trumpet than tune. (> pap from the news mill.)

Despite that scepticism, shouldn't prejudge, I suppose (.... unlike 80-90% of the national press in England).

Maybe Miliband WILL now hunt down Dave with one of the Tories' back-stabbing knives. Or throw one of Lynton's 'dead cats' on to Cam's country supper table. Or indeed, go and bomb out the cities of Britain. (Boris's own Crosby-dead-cat line.)


Simplifying to two extremes a "nasty-turning" which, if it happens, is probably going to be somewhere between the two.

> If "getting nasty" means Miliband forswears a borderline-angelic forbearance, in order explicitly, semi-brutally to set the warped record straight (or rather, a whole bloody warped record collection): no bad thing. Overdue, even.

> If it means he descends to Cameron's - sorry, CROSBY's - level: then not just dispiriting, but idiotic. Because when it comes to flinging shit, Crosby's crew have much greater tonnage of it, all pre-paid. And Murdoch & Dacre & the rest of such rogue barons too, lending continued fanatical ideological support with an endless barrage of their toxic crap.


I *have* seen stories of local zealotry by some cross-brained Labour activists, which are a bit depressing. (Nowhere near the crazed level or systematic nature of frenzy shown by the more prominent SNP faithful, but still.) But without condoning those  in any way, the consistent depth to which the Tories have fought foul (apart from certain mendacities) has deliberate raked up the pitch and lowered the standards of the whole game as their best strategy to win in England, and assist the SNP in Scotland despite the mutual loathing between Tories and SNP.

Important to try something better, less disreputable than that: not only for the sake of the odour of politics, but because Labour are always held to a higher ethical standard (which of course is a cross to bear - any slip seized on by the barons and their parliamentary representatives).

The problem of course is, it is difficult to attempt to be somewhat more principled, and set sights slightly higher, if this means you have to keep turning all four cheeks: to a bunch of entitled-to-rule bovver boys, bent on power at any moral cost. (Hiring Crosby as their jealous mastermind is evidence enough of this.)

[PeterCS]

Re: Murdoch and his minions.

As press-watcher Jim Waterson ‏has pointed out:

"The Sun [England edition] warns readers of "a Labour/SNP nightmare". [On the same day The,] Scottish Sun tells its readers not to buy "this desperate 'vote SNP, get Tory' lie"."

Scotland:



England (note "Reason 2" - no comment on the Royal Changeling child):

[JGK]

So, is it true that a coalition of SNP and Labour is most likely?

[horace]

So, is it true that a coalition of SNP and Labour is most likely?

only if you back the tories

[Bradman]

Get a sniff of treasury benches and most of them would climb into bed with anyone.

[Basil]

So, is it true that a coalition of SNP and Labour is most likely?

I doubt if it will be full-blown coalition. A Confidence and Supply arrangement is possible, but it's more likely to be something a bit looser. Either way, some sort of Labour /SNP tie-up looks the favourite at the moment.

[taipan]

Guessing there might be another election in a few months.

[Basil]

It would take a two-thirds majority to dissolve Parliament.

[taipan]

Can't a PM call a snap election at any time?

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