Chappell vs Border vs Taylor vs Waugh vs Ponting.

JKLever wrote:Steve Waugh was a better bat than Mark Taylor surely?

Waugh was a very ordinary batsman for a very long time. His place in the team was dependant on his bowling & fielding.

Taylor did struggle in the latter part of his career, no argument.

Mick's been to the horrie school of Waugh and peace.

AB tops both lists with Chappell the worst captain and tubby the worst batsman . . .

Why was Chappell such a bad captain? And surely Chappell and Ponting are better bats than Border?

There were times in the 1980's when Australia was Allan Border!

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Why was Chappell such a bad captain? And surely Chappell and Ponting are better bats than Border?

Not so much that chappell was a bad captain just that AB, tubby and Waugh are all quite good, and I think Punter is much better than people give him credit for . . . being captain at a time of major transition . . .

Punter and Chappell are much prettier to watch than AB and have better stats, but AB was all we had during the decade I refuse to recall (well supported by greg Matthews, of course).

JKLever wrote:There were times in the 1980's when Australia was Allan Border!

Testify!

Brass Monkey wrote:I expect the strino's may be like this:

Border
Chappell
Ponting
Waugh
Taylor

Border
Taylor
Waugh
Chappell
Ponting

I reckon the monkey is pretty close to the mark. Maybe you could swap AB abd GSC in the batting but I am not too fussed either way. GSC was an artiste but AB stood out like dogs balls in a very ordinary period.

Tubby was clearly the best tactical skipper in the list but AB deserves the kudos for dragging us out of the mud

But if you could only have one of them in this current Australian side, you wouldn't have Border would you? Or if you could only have one of them in an all time Australian side, you wouldn't have Border then either would you?

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:But if you could only have one of them in this current Australian side, you wouldn't have Border would you? Or if you could only have one of them in an all time Australian side, you wouldn't have Border then either would you?

Of course, I would. AB all the way.

Mental. Let's see your all-time Aus side with only Border out of that lot allowed then.

Methinks Lara doesn't realise what a great player AB was.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Mental. Let's see your all-time Aus side with only Border out of that lot allowed then.

Morris/Haydos
Simpson
Bradman
McCabe/Trumper
Border
Miller
Gilchrist
Lindwall/Davidson
Warne
Lillee
Pidge

(O'Reilly would come in for a quick on turning tracks)

JKLever wrote:Methinks Lara doesn't realise what a great player AB was.

Looks that way . . .

tac wrote:

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:But if you could only have one of them in this current Australian side, you wouldn't have Border would you? Or if you could only have one of them in an all time Australian side, you wouldn't have Border then either would you?

Of course, I would. AB all the way.

Aye.

Fox recently showed a replay of an Aus v Windies ODI from the 80s. Big Bird was scary, made Smith and Woody look like Chris Martin (yeah yeah no biggy) but AB just came out took a few on the chest and then smashed the attack (included Marshall as well) to all parts. Found myself saying "fook me" at his shotmaking a number of times

I'd forgotten how good he actually was

JKLever wrote:Methinks Lara doesn't realise what a great player AB was.

I realise he was great but greater than Chappell and Ponting? Really?

G.Wood wrote:

tac wrote:

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:But if you could only have one of them in this current Australian side, you wouldn't have Border would you? Or if you could only have one of them in an all time Australian side, you wouldn't have Border then either would you?

Of course, I would. AB all the way.

Aye.

Fox recently showed a replay of an Aus v Windies ODI from the 80s. Big Bird was scary, made Smith and Woody look like Chris Martin (yeah yeah no biggy) but AB just came out took a few on the chest and then smashed the attack (included Marshall as well) to all parts. Found myself saying "fook me" at his shotmaking a number of times

I'd forgotten how good he actually was

What about this Chappell innings against Roberts, Imran, Daniel, Underwood and Greig?

http://www.cricketarchive.com/Archive/Scorecards/37/37808.html

Or this one against Roberts, Garner, Imran, Daniel and Greig?

http://www.cricketarchive.com/Archive/Scorecards/37/37838.html


I know Border is lauded for scoring runs against fearsome attacks but Chappell did it too.

To me Taylor was a very clever Captain. Have not seen Chappel in action so cannot comment much on him. Border and Waugh were the sort of leading from the front type Captains. Don't agree with Waugh't so called mental disintegration tactics. It often crossed the boundaries of fair play and had double standards. Ponting, wonderful batsman very average Captain simply because he is not able keep his emotions in check.

I have little doubt that Greg Chappell is the best Australian batsman since Bradman and Ian Chappell the best Australian captain since Benaud.
Like Border only less so, IC inherited a fairly run down team but he didn't have to wait as long for a dramatic recovery.

I thought Border, as captain, was fairly hopeless in his first few years, even whilst he was at his peak as a batsman. Granted, he had a terrible team, which even then was depleted by defections to South Africa. But I was never convinced that he was, at this time, a great motivator or a good tactical thinker in the field. Bowlers seemed unsupported. He seemed a poor captain of spinners, as if he thought everyone could play them as well as he did. He seemed continually reluctant to be in the job. Eventually these things changed, just as the team improved. There were probably never two successive Ashes tours of England so radically different as 1985 and 1989.

It's hard to assess Taylor and especially Waugh as captains because of the quality of the teams they led. I thought Waugh was sometimes needlessly or recklessly over-aggressive and it did not always work.

On balance, then, I'd probably place Taylor first in the list provided. Ponting's place is still up in the air. He's likely to have the opposite experience to Border in that he will probably have to captain through a period of sustained decline.

i rank taylor above the rest...played +'ve and fair cricket
I Chappell was a very aggressive cap with a good team at his disposal
AB had a dreadful team but through dint of effort was able to to add spine and haul them from the muck
G Chappell was negative and remote and captained on a part time basis
Ponting has successfully presided over the rebuilding of the team (post retirements)...not sharp but has done a great job
S Waugh had the best team under his leadership - the drover's dog could have led that team against pretty ordinairy opposition...such was the quality of the team it alowed its captain to pursue personal goals

horace wrote:i rank taylor above the rest...played +'ve and fair cricket
I Chappell was a very aggressive cap with a good team at his disposal
AB had a dreadful team but through dint of effort was able to to add spine and haul them from the muck
G Chappell was negative and remote and captained on a part time basis
Ponting has successfully presided over the rebuilding of the team (post retirements)...not sharp but has done a great job
S Waugh had the best team under his leadership - the drover's dog could have led that team against pretty ordinairy opposition...such was the quality of the team it alowed its captain to pursue personal goals

Batsmen:

Border
G Chappell
S Waugh
Ponting
Taylor

Captains:

Taylor
Border
G Chappell
S Waugh
Ponting

I think plenty of people have forgotten what a champion Tugga Waugh was with the bat. Tubby Taylor was the best captain for me - quality bloke, class act. Don't think any of the others was a comparable tactician, but AB rebuilt the team which deserves 2nd place. AB v GSC is an arguable point as batsmen I grant, but I put both of them clearly above the next two.

peterg wrote:I have little doubt that Greg Chappell is the best Australian batsman since Bradman and Ian Chappell the best Australian captain since Benaud.
Like Border only less so, IC inherited a fairly run down team but he didn't have to wait as long for a dramatic recovery.

I thought Border, as captain, was fairly hopeless in his first few years, even whilst he was at his peak as a batsman. Granted, he had a terrible team, which even then was depleted by defections to South Africa. But I was never convinced that he was, at this time, a great motivator or a good tactical thinker in the field. Bowlers seemed unsupported. He seemed a poor captain of spinners, as if he thought everyone could play them as well as he did. He seemed continually reluctant to be in the job. Eventually these things changed, just as the team improved. There were probably never two successive Ashes tours of England so radically different as 1985 and 1989.

It's hard to assess Taylor and especially Waugh as captains because of the quality of the teams they led. I thought Waugh was sometimes needlessly or recklessly over-aggressive and it did not always work.

On balance, then, I'd probably place Taylor first in the list provided. Ponting's place is still up in the air. He's likely to have the opposite experience to Border in that he will probably have to captain through a period of sustained decline.

Peter - If you had to pick just one of the five for an all time Australian side, taking both batting and captaincy into account, who would it be? And the same question again except for this current Australian side.

Leo wrote:Batsmen:

Border
G Chappell
S Waugh
Ponting
Taylor

Captains:

Taylor
Border
G Chappell
S Waugh
Ponting

I think plenty of people have forgotten what a champion Tugga Waugh was with the bat. Tubby Taylor was the best captain for me - quality bloke, class act. Don't think any of the others was a comparable tactician, but AB rebuilt the team which deserves 2nd place. AB v GSC is an arguable point as batsmen I grant, but I put both of them clearly above the next two.

Having reconsidered, I'd probably rate Waugh above Ponting in my original list.

Why is Waugh so low down as a captain? I thought he had an enormous effect on pushing the players to be the very best they could be with his demands for professionalism and practice.

I never thought Waugh was much of a tactician. The few occasions he was without McWarne, it showed him up badly IMHO.

Mind you, I still think Ponting is worse.