Chappell vs Border vs Taylor vs Waugh vs Ponting.

during the waugh period we had a great team...waugh had very little to do

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Why is Waugh so low down as a captain? I thought he had an enormous effect on pushing the players to be the very best they could be with his demands for professionalism and practice.

Unlike one or two idiots on this place I love the bloke but he was the captaincy version of an FTB. I don't think there has ever been a better captain at putting his foot on the oppositions throat when on top but there didn't seem to be a Plan B when he got in trouble (which granted wasn't often) he just kept going hard.

He also had the benefit of, when devoid of ideas, being able to toss the ball to one or other of the great men

I think Ponting is a very good captain.

Leo wrote:I never thought Waugh was much of a tactician. The few occasions he was without McWarne, it showed him up badly IMHO.

Mind you, I still think Ponting is worse.

Indeed, Ponting is so bad he resorted to copying Vaughan

Border captained Australia in the early days about as well as you'd expect Peter Brock to drive a Leyland P76 at Mt Panorama. His captaincy improved no end after the 87 World Cup but he hung on at least one home summer too long when it was obvious to all he was completely jack of it.

Chappell as captain was always in the middle of a shitstorm of one kind or another - some of them completely of his own making. He was ineffectual during Ashes 77, and went through all 80-81 in a kind of bored, irritated daze (as if hung-over) even before a certain ODI at the MCG in Feb. Missing Ashes 81 saved both his marriage (he himself has said) and his career, but apart from that the Hughes merry-go-round didn't help at all. But after that (even while he was trotting out zeroes in 81-82) his captaincy improved out of sight and he led the 82-83 Ashes campaign as well as anybody could have.

G.Wood wrote:

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Why is Waugh so low down as a captain? I thought he had an enormous effect on pushing the players to be the very best they could be with his demands for professionalism and practice.

Unlike one or two idiots on this place I love the bloke but he was the captaincy version of an FTB. I don't think there has ever been a better captain at putting his foot on the oppositions throat when on top but there didn't seem to be a Plan B when he got in trouble (which granted wasn't even) he just kept going hard.

He also had the benefit of, when devoid of ideas, being able to toss the ball to one or other of the great men

When you say "no plan b", are you talking about that series where his side just could not get Lara out for 3 Tests in a row? There's not a lot you can do about that as a captain. England had the same problem when he scored his 400.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:

G.Wood wrote:

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Why is Waugh so low down as a captain? I thought he had an enormous effect on pushing the players to be the very best they could be with his demands for professionalism and practice.

Unlike one or two idiots on this place I love the bloke but he was the captaincy version of an FTB. I don't think there has ever been a better captain at putting his foot on the oppositions throat when on top but there didn't seem to be a Plan B when he got in trouble (which granted wasn't even) he just kept going hard.

He also had the benefit of, when devoid of ideas, being able to toss the ball to one or other of the great men

When you say "no plan b", are you talking about that series where his side just could not get Lara out for 3 Tests in a row? There's not a lot you can do about that as a captain. England had the same problem when he scored his 400.

I was mainly thinking about VVS and Dravid.

Agreed sometimes the opposition are just too good but are there are things you can do to at least slow them down and frustrate them.

If AB was Peter Brock in a P76 as I said earlier, Waugh was the reverse - a bus driver in a Ferrari. He had the basics of driving and not much more, but in that car against the opposition he found himself up against you didn't often need more.

He did some good things - he ditched the AB/Taylor 'send the nightwatchman in at the drop of a hat' policy, and by refusing to pamper the batsmen in that way he may just have helped reverse the 'small target' phobia that had been a problem for 20 years or more. But some of his Captain Viagra follow-on enforements almost semed to be in denial. And his handling of on-field flare-ups was absolutely hopeless and seemed mostly based on the Ostrich Principle.

Fred Nerk wrote: And his handling of on-field flare-ups was absolutely hopeless and seemed mostly based on the Ostrich Principle.

Spot on. I recall how he just stood and watched when Slater went into that fit against Dravid at Mumbai.

The last three days of Ashes Melb 02-03 was classic Waugh bad captaincy, enforcing the follow-on with a thin attack (neither GM available) that had bowled in 35 deg heat for over a day and just taken 45 mins to knock Andrew Caddick over. The Waugh hate mob endlessly deride his innings on the last morning when he made 14 and was out, last count 28 times, but at the rate wickets were falling, any runs made anyhow were absolutely vital and that was about his only positive contribution to the match since day 2.

Fred Nerk wrote:The last three days of Ashes Melb 02-03 was classic Waugh bad captaincy, enforcing the follow-on with a thin attack (neither GM available) that had bowled in 35 deg heat for over a day and just taken 45 mins to knock Andrew Caddick over. The Waugh hate mob endlessly deride his innings on the last morning when he made 14 and was out, last count 28 times, but at the rate wickets were falling, any runs made anyhow were absolutely vital and that was about his only positive contribution to the match since day 2.

Ponting for example is always wary of enforcing the follow on and is always careful with his bowlers. Getting the best out of Brett Lee for an example.

not sure about chappell/taylor/border as they were before my time but ponting is definitely a greater batsman than waugh. too early to judge on captaincy yet, lets see how ponting skippers this declining side.

Ash wrote:not sure about chappell/taylor/border as they were before my time but ponting is definitely a greater batsman than waugh. too early to judge on captaincy yet, lets see how ponting skippers this declining side.

Sure.

you reckon this side can keep up the standards set by previous sides?

Ash wrote:you reckon this side can keep up the standards set by previous sides?

We have done our declining. McG and W retired 6 Tests ago.

gilly now gone, hayden not far off...lee had a good summer and clarks had a good start to his test career but jury is still out

There's a lot not to like about Ponting's captaincy - there's no way you can spin the Duncan Fletcher fiasco to make him look like anything but an utter dickhead. The Lonnie wide-boy has too much of a habit of emerging under stress.

Ash wrote:gilly now gone, hayden not far off...lee had a good summer and clarks had a good start to his test career but jury is still out

Haddin is the equal if not better of Gilly in his latter career. Haydos is going to go on for a while longer methinks.

But beside that. We are going to stay on a level plain for a while after the tgms retired. Not quite as good but not in decline.

Fred Nerk wrote:There's a lot not to like about Ponting's captaincy - there's no way you can spin the Duncan Fletcher fiasco to make him look like anything but an utter dickhead. The Lonnie wide-boy has too much of a habit of emerging under stress.

Yes and he learnt from his mistakes in the 2005 Ashes and came out as a better captain and batsmen.

Purely from a captaincy perspective i'd go with-

Chappell
Taylor
Border
Waugh
Ponting

In that order.

Henry wrote:Purely from a captaincy perspective i'd go with-

Chappell
Taylor
Border
Waugh
Ponting

In that order.

Well duh

In regards to Ponting- He's a panicker. Never have I seen someone go all pale and frowny faced as quickly as Ponting does when the opposition starts to get on top. 5 minute long team meetings start to get held at the end of each over, fielders are scattered everywhere, Umpires are questioned, and the over rate slumps to 10 an hour.

Captaincy - tactics, motivation, diplomacy, leader

Taylor
Waugh
Chappell
Border
Ponting

Batsmen

Chappell
Border
Ponting
Waugh
Taylor

Batsmen

Ponting
Waugh
Border
Chappell
Taylor

Henry wrote:Purely from a captaincy perspective i'd go with-

Chappell
Taylor
Border
Waugh
Ponting

In that order.

Trev

You do know it's Greg and not Ian don't you???