Re: UK politics thread

[skully]

[taipan]

Um, the EU hasn't signed up. They meet on 25 November to endorse the deal.

[whitburn]

Completely bizarre set of circumstances. It just shows how venal and destructive the alt-right really is. People like Nigel Falangist should be exiled in some Zeus forsaken spot eg the White House.

Even in the improbable event May's model gets through Parliament there is no guarantee the EU will sign up.

It is remarkable that people simply thought they were voting on kicking Poles out. No-one bothered to tease out to the public what a debacle Brexit would be on all manner of fronts.

Corbyn is just as bad.

He is far worse, he supports islamic dictators and calls them friends. The country would fall to bits with his borrowing plans. Can you imagine Dianne Abbott in charge of national security? That moron barely knows her name.

[whitburn]

What people have to accept and accept fully is that we HAD the peoples' vote and those same people said OUT and out means out not half in to stay best friends with European big noises who really have little time for the UK. If we'd have voted IN we wouldn't have seen anywhere near as many bad losers. Boy are they losers too.

Getting a Remoaner (May) to see through Brexit was like asking a lion to guard your Sunday roast dinner whilst you have a pee. IE no chance of a successful outcome. A Brexiteer should have been at the controls.

The current agreement is the worst of all worlds. Huge cost, no control, playing naughty pupil to EU head teachers.
Dog's dinner.

OUT meant OUT so they need to get on with doing what i and 17.5 million others voted for.

[Guest]

OUT meant OUT so they need to get on with doing what i and 17.5 million others voted for.

It's almost like you and 17.5 million people didn't have a clue about the reality of what you were voting for. Who would have thought it?

.....Other than the sensible people who voted remain.

[whitburn]

OUT meant OUT so they need to get on with doing what i and 17.5 million others voted for.

It's almost like you and 17.5 million people didn't have a clue about the reality of what you were voting for. Who would have thought it?

.....Other than the sensible people who voted remain.

We knew exactly what we were voting for and the sheep-like Remoaners haven't the first idea about 90% of what it is all about. As a substantial shareholder in the international company i work for i know the possibilities if we were truly free as a country.

Remaining in a corrupt club such as the EU isn't remotely sensible and shows that you have no idea about it either.

You're clearly a Remoaner and much scarier you probably want Corbyn and Abbott leading us. FFS!

[whitburn]

Another bad loser, plain as that.

[Big Dog]

Maybe you Brits should adopt a compulsory voting system like we have. Then there are no excuses.

[JGK]

Maybe you Brits should adopt a compulsory voting system like we have. Then there are no excuses.

Sage. I always laugh when foreigners say that compulsory voting is somehow undemocratic.

[krikri]

OUT meant OUT so they need to get on with doing what i and 17.5 million others voted for.

It's almost like you and 17.5 million people didn't have a clue about the reality of what you were voting for. Who would have thought it?

.....Other than the sensible people who voted remain.

Well, exactly.

They were sold the dream that it would be a land of milk and honey from the moment it said 52-48 leave - a lot of people were so stupid they thought that meant an immediate withdrawal from europe. Then you've got Liam Fox talking about how our financial situation will look better in 2060 when there are 1.1 billion middle class Africans. You've got Jacob Rees Mogg saying the benefits, if any, probably won't be seen for at least another 50 years. Dominic Raab the Brexit Secretary who didn't quite understand the importance of the port of Dover to the country's economy. They were told that Little Britain would be a more powerful country in negotiations than the whole of the remaining EU combined. Nobody knew what they were voting for other than an idea to leave the EU and when it all goes tits up and our economy is severely damaged or stagnates for decades as a result then the Brexiteers they won't care because most of them will be dead, it's an old persons and xenophobics vote. They can't debate with facts because it disproves their point.

It's like the recent talk about a european army and how it proves we were right to leave.. Given the standing of our army, the political climate and a VETO - it would never have happened if we were to remain in the EU. This is more likely precisely because we've left. Apparently we needed to leave to we could do our own trade deals, set something up with the Chinese. Despite the fact that Germany sells shedloads more than us to the Chinese whilst being in the EU - possibly because they have more worth selling to the Chinese than we do.

There needed to be a supermajority for this to happen because it's not something reversible. There's not enough of a mandate, nearly as many people who voted wanted to stay as much as leave. I believe Nigel Farage said himself, before the result, that if it was 52-48 the other way then it would be unfinished business. It wasn't even a legally binding referendum, it was a public consultation.

I could go on. But hey, Britannia rules the waves..

[beamer]

Yeah, I expect some of them will be suggesting the next step as sending the ships out and getting our empire back...

I’m no great fan of the EU as an institution, but this whole mess has just highlighted how much we rely on it in so many different ways. Leaving via the May deal will just leave us in an awkward halfway house with no influence, leaving chaotically will literally cost lives (possibly directly through disruption of medical supplies and carnage in Ireland, definitely indirectly through job losses, years of mega-austerity, etc.) and nobody old enough to vote is likely to see any benefits in their lifetime.

Are people really doing it selflessly for the benefits their grandchildren will get? Or just cutting off their nose to spite their face on a point of principle, to rid us of “those nasty Europeans”?

[beamer]

And of course, we’ll just be pushed into the arms of the Americans. I’d rather answer to Donald Tusk than Donald Trump...

[krikri]

Yeah, I expect some of them will be suggesting the next step as sending the ships out and getting our empire back...

I’m no great fan of the EU as an institution, but this whole mess has just highlighted how much we rely on it in so many different ways. Leaving via the May deal will just leave us in an awkward halfway house with no influence, leaving chaotically will literally cost lives (possibly directly through disruption of medical supplies and carnage in Ireland, definitely indirectly through job losses, years of mega-austerity, etc.) and nobody old enough to vote is likely to see any benefits in their lifetime.

Are people really doing it selflessly for the benefits their grandchildren will get? Or just cutting off their nose to spite their face on a point of principle, to rid us of “those nasty Europeans”?

I think it needs some sort of reform, but so do a lot of other people in a lot of other european countries. I'm pro UK rather than pro EU/Brexit. I want a deal that makes us a wealthier country so our citizens have a better quality of life - and for a long time that has been as a member of the EU. It's not going to change any time soon.

[beamer]

Completely bizarre set of circumstances. It just shows how venal and destructive the alt-right really is. People like Nigel Falangist should be exiled in some Zeus forsaken spot eg the White House.

Even in the improbable event May's model gets through Parliament there is no guarantee the EU will sign up.

It is remarkable that people simply thought they were voting on kicking Poles out. No-one bothered to tease out to the public what a debacle Brexit would be on all manner of fronts.

Corbyn is just as bad.

He is far worse, he supports islamic dictators and calls them friends. The country would fall to bits with his borrowing plans. Can you imagine Dianne Abbott in charge of national security? That moron barely knows her name.

Just different “Islamic dictators” from the ones we’re currently friends with (Saudis etc.)?

A Corbyn government is a scary prospect (certainly with the likes of Abbott involved), but at least one we could reverse pretty quickly if it all went wrong, then we might get a sensible moderate Labour party again... given the alternatives I’m now willing to give the magical money tree a shake and see what falls from it

[taipan]

Sounds like a no confidence vote coming.

[Growler]

Of course we all know who's ultimately responsible for the whole debacle, but he'll never be held responsible for it.

He's not a Brexiteer.

[taipan]

Of course we all know who's ultimately responsible for the whole debacle, but he'll never be held responsible for it.

He's not a Brexiteer.

Cameron?

[whitburn]

Luckily i have work colleagues and friends alike who see it very largely as i do. The sore loser remoaners are throwing their toys out of their prams in a way the leavers never would have, had the vote gone the other way. Over a million people more voted to leave than stay and for good and sensible reasons but of course in the eyes of the losers they knew nothing whilst all the remoaners knew everything there was to know.
A huge number of the remoaners are first time voters with no university of life or business experience whatsoever so if we go down that route of leavers not knowing the detail or being stupid, maybe we should have had a 21 years minimum age to vote so that people get no say until they've lived and worked a little. These things can work both ways.
Leave meant leave not a half baked 'stay and pay but no say' scenario.
NO DEAL is the best bet by miles. My boss is very successful at just 51 years old yet wants to leave the EU and he knows business inside out and employs plenty of people in several countries. The left wing need to pipe down and get real.

[Growler]

In one, taips.

The Tories were on their arse from 1992 when John Major became PM. After 13 years of Labour trying to bankrupt the country, even considering the Grinning Liar taking us into the legally dubious Gulf War II, and the 2008 financial crash, they couldn't get a majority.

UKIP started winning a few MEP and looked to be getting some traction, and Cameron shat his dacks. He promised a referendum he had no intention of keeping.

Why ?

Because he never in a million years expected to get a majority in 2015. He was convinced that he'd be in coalition with the LibDems again, and they (being the most Pro-EU party in Britain) would never pass the legislation to call the referendum - and he's off the hook.

As you were, normal service resumed.

His biggest error was to underestimate the tolerance of the Great British Public. He forgot that the LibDems first act in government was to flush the student (and students parents) vote down the gurgler. Having campaigned on a guarantee of no increase to university tuition fees, they voted for a 3-fold increase, from £3,000 to £9,000.

That lie cost them close on 50 MP's, because the public had been taken for mugs once too often. Cameron had an unforseen, and unwanted majority and was then caught out by his rash promise - he had to call it.

The campaign was disgraceful by both sides. There were genuine cases to be made by both Leave and Remain, and neither side made them. Both exaggerated and overstated their case, misrepresented the other viewpoint, and failed utterly to act in good faith.

Remain should have had a vast majority - and probably would have had they not been so dismissive of genuine concerns on issues of all kinds. Whether those concerns were justified or not, a response along the lines of

"shut up and go away, you racist/sexist/homophobic/misogynistic/xenophobic ignorant little shit-kicker"

has never in history got someone to change their view. Nothing has changed. The bile and vitriol is just as strong as it's ever been. Both sides are still exaggerating at best, outright lying at worst.

Cameron, as we now know shat his dacks again and buggered off within days - leaving everyone splattered in it, and trying to clean up. People point the finger at Farage, but the bloke was never more than a bit-part actor playing the fool.

People are aiming at Farage, Boris, Gove, JRM and the like, whilst the person who really deserves the flak carries on untouched.

[taipan]

Very good summary Growls. There is no doubt that campaigns on both sides were tainted by outright lies and a very undereducated electorate. (Once again I must state my hatred of universal suffrage)

At the time my view of Cameron was cowardice of the highest degree. In WW1 he would have been shot.

At this stage the biggest loser is Theresa May, who was handed an extremely poisoned chalice, but at least is showing fortitude under fire, having been back stabbed by a number of her colleagues. I hope history treats her well.

[Growler]

I wasn't in favour of the plebiscite - it could never heal the growing rift in the country and was always going to end badly, whatever the result.

I didn't vote, and can't agree with compulsory voting unless there is a "none of you buggers" option. I see it like going shopping. I don't want a compulsary choice of tinned spaghetti or tinned tomatoes when I actually want baked beans ....

Here's the commonest misconception though .... the "education" aspect that gets thrown around as though only clever people knew the consequenses of leaving the EU.

It's always claimed that "they didn't know what they were voting for", even though the government sent every household a bumphlet explaining why they recommended Remain. People voted Leave in spite of the approaching apocalypse. Some of the predictions were of a similar tone to  the ones we older people heard regarding the "millennium bug". Everything from our washing machines not working to jumbo jets falling from the sky.

I'm not sure there were that many outright lies, mainly because nobody on either side could see for certain what precisely would happen - but there was exaggeration on a vast scale. Forecasts of market crashes and so on - conveniently forgetting that the experts making these forecasts somehow either didn't see or deliberately allowed the global 2008 crash leading to pension funds wrecked and wage stagnation which are still with  the blue-collar classes. The professional classes - not so much.

There's a lot spoken about the importance of trade and tarriffs, and understandably so - EU is our biggest market, as we are one of their biggest. The barrier to a quick deal is politicians and bureaucrats having a dick-waving contest. French, Dutch and Danish farmers, Greek, Italian and Spanish hoteliers and German engineers/car makers would work a deal in no time. It's deyond dispute that no deal would be as disastrous for them as any industry in the UK. On the other hand, when your multinational employer moves your job to eastern Europe and you end up on a minimum wage zero hours contract - d'you care that a new BMW goes up by £2,000?

Mrs May is on a hiding to nothing, I fear. I personally think the best strategy would have been to start with an "off the shelf, ready to go" option as a starting point for negotiation, with the vanilla deal as a fall-back if we couldn't negotiate some aspects.

It would have taken us out of the EU, thus fulfilling the letter of the referendum result without doubt. It would have given Leave about 3/4 of their wishes, whilst reassuring Remain that trade was relatively stable. Only the wildest extremists on both sides would have had a problem.

I refer of course to the so-called "Norway Arrangement".

[beamer]

maybe we should have had a 21 years minimum age to vote so that people get no say until they've lived and worked a little. These things can work both ways.

Or maybe we should have had a maximum age, so those voting based on empire nostalgia can’t f*ck up the prospects of generations who will outlive them by decades?

As I’ve said, I’m no EU apologist, but no deal is like saying “my city is a shithole, so let’s nuke it in order to build a fantastic new one”. Is it really worth the years of suffering and social unrest it will cause, when those who lose out the most will be those with the least?

[Guest]

Another bad loser, plain as that.

Couldn't give two shits about "winning" or "losing". I want what is best for the country and the people in it. If in five years Brexit proves to be a master stroke with unemployment, homelessness and poverty lower than they are now and more funding for public services then I'll happily concede that Leave was a brilliant choice.

But as of today, it's a shit show.

Whilst I'm not rich, I'm fortunate enough that money isn't a massive worry and I probably won't ever be in poverty. But I'm human and would like to live in a pleasant society where suffering is at a minimum. I don't think Brexit has improved the country and I don't think it ever will. Would love to be wrong.

[beamer]

Another bad loser, plain as that.

Couldn't give two shits about "winning" or "losing". I want what is best for the country and the people in it. If in five years Brexit proves to be a master stroke with unemployment, homelessness and poverty lower than they are now and more funding for public services then I'll happily concede that Leave was a brilliant choice.

Never mind 5 years, even Moggy admitted it will take 50 to see any benefit...

[beamer]

Of course we all know who's ultimately responsible for the whole debacle, but he'll never be held responsible for it.

He's not a Brexiteer.

Cameron?

Blair, because if he hadn’t invaded Iraq then a sensible centrist “New Labour” government would still be in power to this day?

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