Re: UK politics thread

by Basil Tue 11 Dec 2018, 07:52

Yorkies hate everyone.

by Bradman Tue 11 Dec 2018, 07:56

Yeah my grandfather thought anyone born too close to the borders were sus. Mind you he was a total farkwit.

by JGK Tue 11 Dec 2018, 08:15

Bradman wrote:Nath! Ramp it up and wait for the gutless qunts to blink. Europe has enough problems, why not exploit them. She could probably win an election doing the bodices act.

I'm not sure her 62 year old cans are going to impress the electorate, other than that small group who frequent gilfs.com

by Bradman Tue 11 Dec 2018, 08:20

Sorry corrective text which sucks. Boudicea. And being a cans man I thought you wouldn't be fussy.

by JGK Wed 12 Dec 2018, 05:46

So is this Boris' big day?

by Bradman Wed 12 Dec 2018, 08:17

Well the gauntlet has been thrown down. Someone will probably pick it up in the next couple of hours.

by beamer Wed 12 Dec 2018, 08:17

by Bradman Wed 12 Dec 2018, 08:46

An old boss of mine said chaos means profit. Run to gold really quickly?

by horace Wed 12 Dec 2018, 09:41

This is really a diabolical mess.

Could or should the Tories split?

Surely Boris can't get up? Pomgolia would become a rogue state.

by skully Wed 12 Dec 2018, 09:57

If Boris becomes PM, it'll be a toss up between the US and the UK as to who has the most embarrassing buffoonish leader.

by taipan Wed 12 Dec 2018, 10:30

skully wrote:If Boris becomes PM, it'll be a toss up between the US and the UK as to who has the most embarrassing buffoonish leader.

Only because we chucked Zuma out.

by JGK Wed 12 Dec 2018, 13:24

taipan wrote:
skully wrote:If Boris becomes PM, it'll be a toss up between the US and the UK as to who has the most embarrassing buffoonish leader.

Only because we chucked Zuma out.

And we no longer have Tony...

by embee Wed 12 Dec 2018, 14:51

and didnt elect Mark

and havent yet elected Bill

by whitburn Wed 12 Dec 2018, 16:43

No deal is what we voted for originally because almost every one of the 17.5 MILLION wanted OUT, not in but pretend to be out with all manner of agreements and compromises. The number would have been more like 20 million had not all the snowflake actresses and actors and music icons told everyone the world would end if we voted out, along with Obama, both major leaders in the UK and loads more. We ignored the doom mongering and voted OUT.
But we won't get it.

by whitburn Wed 12 Dec 2018, 16:45

Theresa May(not) is a remainer, i e she wants to stay. So letting her get Brexit was like asking a bloke on an acid trip the safest way to cross the road, it was never going to happen without disaster. Like giving your car keys to a car thief and asking him to park it a mile away for you whilst you have a bath.

by Guest Wed 12 Dec 2018, 17:58

whitburn wrote:Theresa May(not) is a remainer, i e she wants to stay. So letting her get Brexit was like asking a bloke on an acid trip the safest way to cross the road, it was never going to happen without disaster. Like giving your car keys to a car thief and asking him to park it a mile away for you whilst you have a bath.

Hopefully she will be gone and then Boris will get in. He was one of the main cheerleaders for leave. If he gets in I'm sure everything will go smoothly and nothing could possibly go wrong.

He won't get in though. He wouldn't want to. He knows it's a poisoned chalice.

Looks like May will survive anyway.

by Basil Wed 12 Dec 2018, 18:42

The original referendum vote needs validating by a further vote. There should be three choices:

Remain
Leave under WTO rules
Leave under whatever deal May cobbles together.

It would preferential voting but it shouldn't be too much for people to count to three.

Also, it needs to be legislative referendum and advisory like the first one.

by beamer Wed 12 Dec 2018, 19:33

whitburn wrote:No deal is what we voted for originally because almost every one of the 17.5 MILLION wanted OUT, not in but pretend to be out with all manner of agreements and compromises. The number would have been more like 20 million had not all the snowflake actresses and actors and music icons told everyone the world would end if we voted out, along with Obama, both major leaders in the UK and loads more. We ignored the doom mongering and voted OUT.
But we won't get it.

If we want to leave on WTO terms there has to be a gradual transition to it, otherwise it will literally cost lives (through breakdown of medical supplies and possible collapse of the NHS).

An unmanaged no deal would at best be a few weeks of chaos, at worst it would be total economic collapse like Zimbabwe. It would be the most reckless thing ever done by a democratically elected government, wars perhaps aside. The only positive to it would be saying “I told you so” to the likes of Boris and yourself...

by Growler Wed 12 Dec 2018, 19:52

Basil - that's just a bit loaded isn't it ? Nicely splits the leave vote.

Why not just the two ....

A. Remain

B. Leave - on the understanding that it may be a no deal "crash-out" scenario.

Then what happens if the result goes Leave a second time?

The honest thing - which won't happen, of course ...

... would be for a no-confidence vote to bring the government down

... for Labour to openly campaign for remain(which they want - but many of their core support do not)

... and for the Tories to commit to carrying out leave.

That would be a real "peoples vote", and nobody could be in any doubt as to what exactly they were voting for, no?

Since everyone from the governor of the B of E downwards has basically said that the world will end, that we'll either starve to death or die through lack of medicine, or otherwise revert to stone age living, I'm not sure a Corbyn government would be a worse alternative Very Happy

by beamer Wed 12 Dec 2018, 20:07

Three (or more) options would have to be single transferrable vote, so as not to split the leave vote or the anti-no deal vote or whatever. One option would have to ultimately get more than 50% by some mechanism.

Anyway, not sure that the Leave voters all shared the same view of Brexit, any more than the politicians... in fact most of them were either people from economically deprived areas who were sick of the “bloody foreigners” taking their jobs, whether or not that was true (and they’ll all be picking fruit for sod all per hour after Brexit, hope they enjoy it), racist old buggers who don’t want any more of those “Muslamics” over here, and people who just voted that way because they “didn’t like David Cameron”.

by Basil Wed 12 Dec 2018, 20:13

Growler wrote:Basil - that's just a bit loaded isn't it ? Nicely splits the leave vote.

Why not just the two ....

A. Remain

B. Leave - on the understanding that it may be a no deal "crash-out" scenario.

Then what happens if the result goes Leave a second time?

The honest thing - which won't happen, of course ...

... would be for a no-confidence vote to bring the government down

... for Labour to openly campaign for remain(which they want - but many of their core support do not)

... and for the Tories to commit to carrying out leave.

That would be a real "peoples vote", and nobody could be in any doubt as to what exactly they were voting for, no?

Since everyone from the governor of the B of E downwards has basically said that the world will end, that we'll either starve to death or die through lack of medicine, or otherwise revert to stone age living, I'm not sure a Corbyn government would be a worse alternative

Nope, voters put 1, 2 or 3 on their ballot paper. When the votes are counted, the least populate (3) get reallocated.

Or, have two votes _ with the drop 2 in a run off. That would, however, need a delay to implementing Article 50.

by Growler Wed 12 Dec 2018, 21:39

Sorry Baz - wasn't accusing you of bad faith, buddy, your proposal is probably as good as any - but I think the damage to our nation is now beyond repair.

The fact is that right from the start, a few people on both Leave and Remain lied through their back teeth. Few people really believed the Leavers "NHS Bus" campaign regarding EU money. On the other hand, when the Chancellor himself gets on his hind legs telling pensioners their guaranteed pension lock is gone was equally disgraceful.

Although the result was 52-48 Leave, I really don't believe that was a true reflection of the real attitude to the EU of the electorate as a whole. There were a significant number of people who voted remain with a fair degree of reluctance. Some through fear of the alternative (uncertainty), some because they felt that overall it would be better for their children - but all for valid, honourable reasons.

Nobody voted leave reluctantly - and the attitude of many remainers won't have done anything to change their views. In fact, with no hard evidence whatsoever ... but a gut feeling ... I think that more last-time remain voters could change to leave on principle. Most MPs of both parties got elected on a manifesto of delivering Brexit. Many of them are now actively calling for cancellation.

Whilst the voters can't punish them at a General Election, they can certainly spite their MP should Brexit ever come back to the public .... which it won't, of course.

by Basil Wed 12 Dec 2018, 22:22

I'm actually a recent convert to the idea of a second referendum.I had been of the opinion that we on the Remain side would just have to suck it up. But the negotiation process has been utterly chaotic and the mutterings of the knuckledraggers on the right of the Tory party have convinced me that a second referendum is the best chance we have of avoiding a calamity.

by skully Thu 13 Dec 2018, 00:27

May survives the no confidence vote 200 to 117.

by Growler Thu 13 Dec 2018, 02:34

Basil, I don't believe Remain ever had to simply "suck it up" in the way I think you mean. That said, I don't believe that many leading remain campaigners have acted in good faith either - and neither have the EU itself.

Now, I get that we're "leaving the club" so to speak, and so we lose the obvious benefits of membership if we don't pay the subscriptions. I also see why the EU "leadership" can't be seen to be giving us anything resembling a good deal.

The general public across large parts of Europe feel ignored and disenfranchised, as shown by the rise in extremist parties. The bureaucrats are shitting conkers that sooner or later, Le Pen's Front Nationale, Germany's AfD, or some equally awful bunch further East will eventually "do a UKIP" and force a vote. Another Leave vote on the continent, and the whole thing is holed below the waterline.

There's no disputing that leaving will have economic consequences for us - but nobody is honest enough to acknowledge that the EU will also suffer. Last year, we imported around £70 Bn more than we exported to EU countries. Of course the big trading bloc will cope easier with the aftermath - but let's not pretend it will be painless across the channel.

If we crash out, we don't suffer in isolation. One out of every seven cars built in Germany comes here ... that's a big jobs hit if they can't sell them to somebody else. £650m of wine comes here from France, and the same from Italy. It will take more than a few days to find somewhere to sell that lot. Likewise, considering that Tunisia & Turkey are nice holiday destinations, and only a slightly longer flight, I'm sure Greek and Spanish tourist chiefs are already taking bookings from Chinese, Americans and Russian visitors to fill the rooms once filled by UK holidaymakers.

Likewise, it won't only be us dying off through lack of pills. I'm sure GSK and AstraZeneca are the sole manufacturers of some fairly new patented drugs widely used throughout the world.

Yes, the negotiations have been a complete shit-show, but can anyone say, hand on heart that the fault is all on the part of the UK?

It's fair enough that the EU will not sign off on any trade issues right now - but what good reason is there for not even ** began** talks ... and won't even consider it until the divorce is finalised.

Whilst I'm not willing to say that the UK is "being punished" - IMO there's no doubt that the EU is not remotely negotiating in good faith. If they were, in the 30 months since the referendum result there should be - on an industry by industry basis (eg aviation, vehicles and pharma) - protocols agreed and ready to sign off at a few hours notice. All it needs is agreement to continue with the current arrangements (with a certain payment towards administration, no problem with that).

The question is - why isn't there?

BTW, I don't disagree with you regarding the mutterings of the more extreme Brexiteers. By the same token I've nothing but utter contempt for those whose attitude is Remain at any cost, and fook you thickos who don't agree.

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