Re: UK politics thread (II)

by Bradman Sun 11 Aug 2019, 18:22

One of those times where elected officials should lead and tell the people they're wrong? Doesn't happen too often. Pessimism could see Farage do a Bradbury.

I'm torn between the weakness of the UK pollies and my contempt for Europe.

by beamer Mon 12 Aug 2019, 08:09

Well, (almost) nobody’s suggesting just turning around and cancelling it without going back to the electorate. But it does feel like time for them to say “It’s now clear that we can’t do this without making everyone worse off, destroying jobs and businesses, making us less secure and isolating ourselves in the world. Do you still want to go through with it?” If the voters say yes again - fair enough. If someone’s really determined to jump off that bridge, you can’t stop them doing so forever...

by lardbucket Mon 12 Aug 2019, 09:21

Perhaps they can restrict voting to those not wearing a Gumby or cloth cap, with an MSE score above 20?

by Bradman Mon 12 Aug 2019, 10:25

Still stuck with stick it up Europe. But I don't have to live there.

by Ronnie Sawyer Wed 14 Aug 2019, 07:25

I recently took the big decision to leave a well-paid job with Capita and set up my own company. Our research shows Brexit will be good for us and the 5 people we currently employ. So far we've got some good customers, many outside the EU. Things are going better than expected.
The problem is too many people don't handle change well, get brainwashed by left-wing schools and universities (note that the very well-paid professors are perfectly happy with their taxes staying low and other financial advantages under the Tories) and have no get up and go. They'd prefer to whine about the perfectly democratic decision by the British people to LEAVE the EU, with it's expensive and unnecessary rules and it's vastly overpaid bureaucrats. They'd sooner whinge on a forum or weep into their Guardian or Morning Star.
We voted out but had the decision gone the other way, you'd not have seen a tenth of the bad losers we have right now. The left wing needs to pipe down, accept the decision and get their own lives and futures in order. Of the many fatal things the hard left stands for a big one is the assumption that someone else will pay for a given thing, whether it's another million fakeugees (almost all male and adult males at that who should be staying where they were and fighting for/rebuilding their countries, not leaving it to the women and kids left behind), nationalising of all our services and the quite stunning benefit bill we have to due to mass uncontrolled immigration we have not the space or finances for. A and E for example will never ever cope again with the ridiculous population rise we have of 6,000 more people every single week. Then there's the need to totally concrete over our once green and pleasant land with houses and roads and car parks to cope with the aforementioned bodies.
With the left wing you quickly run out of everyone elses' money, in a nutshell. Most people with any brains knows this which is why labour have been in power for how many of the past 40 years?

by beamer Wed 14 Aug 2019, 08:09

Ronnie Sawyer wrote:note that the very well-paid professors are perfectly happy with their taxes staying low and other financial advantages under the Tories

Most well-paid people are selfish? No shit, Sherlock. Strangely, a lot of less well off people vote for them when it would make/keep them poorer...

Anyway, isn’t Conservatism meant to be about stability? This government is proposing to rip up half our supply chains overnight, leaving a large part of the population jobless and hungry, and people are prepared to accept that or even celebrate it. If people want Brexit - fine, but do it in an orderly way that lets the country adjust. Do it this way, and the damage will be permanent, the country will disintegrate, law and order will break down, and we won’t need Corbyn to turn us into Venezuela.

by taipan Sun 01 Sep 2019, 13:25

So is “no deal” a “done deal”?

by beamer Sun 01 Sep 2019, 13:45

If parliamentary attempts to block it this week fail, then it probably is a done deal. Although Boris still thinks he can persuade the EU to leave us a back door open into their single market. Which to be fair could also be the outcome after no deal, if all sides refuse to implement the Irish border as nobody wants to be to blame for restarting the NI Troubles with a vengeance.

by Basil Sun 01 Sep 2019, 13:51

If Parliament fails to vote through a legislation effectively outlawing No Deal, it's possible that the EU might unilaterally postpone the 31st October deadline.

by beamer Sun 01 Sep 2019, 14:00

Basil wrote:If Parliament fails to vote through a legislation effectively outlawing No Deal, it's possible that the EU might unilaterally postpone the 31st October deadline.

It can’t, though... the UK has set it out in law that it will leave that day, and unless both sides agree to extend it or the UK unilaterally withdraws article 50, that will be the legal position. The EU has no unilateral power to stop a country leaving, otherwise article 50 would serve no purpose.

Of course, the EU could decide to effectively keep everything the same in practice after the UK has left without a deal, pending negotiations or a UK election or referendum. But that would probably open them up to legal issues with other trading partners.

by Basil Sun 01 Sep 2019, 16:11

beamer wrote:
Basil wrote:If Parliament fails to vote through a legislation effectively outlawing No Deal, it's possible that the EU might unilaterally postpone the 31st October deadline.
It can’t, though... the UK has set it out in law that it will leave that day, and unless both sides agree to extend it or the UK unilaterally withdraws article 50, that will be the legal position. The EU has no unilateral power to stop a country leaving, otherwise article 50 would serve no purpose.

Of course, the EU could decide to effectively keep everything the same in practice after the UK has left without a deal, pending negotiations or a UK election or referendum. But that would probably open them up to legal issues with other trading partners.

Point taken. Interesting thing about yesterday's protests, was that there were no or very few counter-demonstrations.

by beamer Sun 01 Sep 2019, 16:33

Yeah, I think there were a small number, but even a fair number of people who support Brexit seem uncomfortable with this course of action.

If we do leave with no deal though, any MP who failed to take the opportunity to vote for a deal when there was one on the table will be culpable to an extent.

by Bradman Sun 01 Sep 2019, 17:07

No deal is better than a bad deal? Not my words. FFS the people have spoken. Tell Europe to to go fark themselves.

by beamer Sun 01 Sep 2019, 17:12

Bradman wrote:No deal is better than a bad deal? Not my words. FFS the people have spoken. Tell Europe to to go fark themselves.

The trouble is it will leave us short of essentials. Half our food comes from the EU. If we’re eating spam and corned beef for Christmas dinner there will be riots. And that’s before we consider medicines, fuel, water treatment chemicals etc. which could literally cost lives if they can’t get through.

Europe has all the power and they know it. No deal will be bad for them, but it will be utterly ruinous for us, and the country could go into permanent decline or take decades to recover. But Boris and his mates will be OK, with their millions in offshore hedge funds that have shorted the pound. The only other winners will be Messrs. Trump, Xi and Putin.

by Bradman Sun 01 Sep 2019, 17:32

Th people voted, reaffirmed thethat vote frequently and Europe is bluffing.

by beamer Sun 01 Sep 2019, 17:37

Europe’s not bluffing. Why would they need to bluff? We’re the ones holding a gun to our own heads, they might just get sprayed with a bit of blood if we pull the trigger.

They’re not going to back down and give us all the benefits of being in the EU if we leave, which is what Boris wants. Our so-called government is using citizens’ rights and continued peace in Northern Ireland as bargaining chips, which is absolutely outrageous.

by Bradman Sun 01 Sep 2019, 17:57

Citizens rights and peace. How dare they.

by Basil Sun 01 Sep 2019, 18:03

Bradman wrote:Th people voted, reaffirmed thethat vote frequently and Europe is bluffing.

Democracy is not a one- off event. Much more about the implications of leaving the EU is known now than was the case before the referendum. I can live with another Leave vote, although it beggars belief that there would be a majority for leaving on the basis of current knowledge about the dire consequences.

Leaving without a deal is a concept invented by pro -leavers after the referendum when the complexity or sheer impossibility of striking a remotely favourable became apparent.

by beamer Sun 01 Sep 2019, 18:09

Bradman wrote:Citizens rights and peace. How dare they.

Was that supposed to be sarcastic? If so, you utter qunt.

by Bradman Sun 01 Sep 2019, 18:15

What and the backstop isn't a concept dreampt up in Brussels or Whitehall.

by Bradman Sun 01 Sep 2019, 18:18

beamer wrote:
Bradman wrote:Citizens rights and peace. How dare they.
Was that supposed to be sarcastic? If so, you utter qunt.

Picked it. At least I'm not sounding reasonable.

More sarcasm btw. Goes along with your irrationality.

by beamer Sun 01 Sep 2019, 18:20

Your point being? Of course it was dreamt up in Brussels and Whitehall, to try and address an issue that was pretty much impossible to solve. It’s not perfect but nobody has come up with an alternative.

In the long run, the only possibilities are 1) hard border, 2) united Ireland, 3) Ireland also leaving the EU, or 4) the UK staying in the EU or a customs union. You have to pick one of those four. Given the Brexiteers don’t want 1), 2) or 4), the only explanation is they’re trying to drive a wedge between Dublin and Brussels and force Ireland out of the EU to preserve peace. Good luck with that... Irexit has 10% public support, if that.

by beamer Sun 01 Sep 2019, 18:21

Bradman wrote:
beamer wrote:
Bradman wrote:Citizens rights and peace. How dare they.
Was that supposed to be sarcastic? If so, you utter qunt.

Picked it. At least I'm not sounding reasonable.

More sarcasm btw. Goes along with your irrationality.

What’s f*cking irrational? Tell me where I’m being f*cking irrational you c*nt. I’m just stating the facts, dickhead. You’re making light of a dictatorial government playing games with people’s lives. Twat.

by Basil Sun 01 Sep 2019, 18:25

Bradman wrote:What and the backstop isn't a concept dreampt up in Brussels or Whitehall.

It's the only sane mechanism for managing a land border with the EU that avoids a return to check points which would be an open invitation to the IRA and associated splinter groups to resume hostilities.

by beamer Sun 01 Sep 2019, 18:27

Basil wrote:
Bradman wrote:What and the backstop isn't a concept dreampt up in Brussels or Whitehall.
It's the only sane mechanism for managing a land border with the EU that avoids a return to check points which would be an open invitation to the IRA and associated splinter groups to resume hostilities.

Yeah, guess we should just ignore those morons who live on the other side of the world and have no understanding of the issues.

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