Re: India v England, 2nd Test, Mumbai, 23-27 November, 2012

by taipan Wed 21 Nov 2012, 12:56

Brass Monkey wrote:So, you're saying that about 17 home Tests ago we produced a greeny? It wasn't to do with the amount of rain? It was a designated greeny? 17 Tests ago? Produced a greeny against one of the better greeny attacks going?

We are dastardly. We are so naughty.

Um, you werent even playing?

by taipan Wed 21 Nov 2012, 12:58

Henry wrote:All I'm saying is, what is a "good cricket pitch"? Is a turner a bad pitch? Is a seamer a bad pitch? I don't think so.

For me, a flat pitch is a bad pitch. Anything else is interesting. And it's not easy to prepare a pitch with pace and bounce. Look at Perth. They've been trying without success for 10 years to get the pace and bounce back into it, even though they have ideal weather conditions to do so. Also the West Indies pitches haven't had much life in them for a while. So what chance does Ahmedabad have?

I would go with the traditional. Something for the seamers on the first morning, and then becoming better for batting, but with still a bit there for the new ball. And then some spin on days 4 and 5

by mirchy Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:06

“Name one. Name the last time we prepared a greeny?”

“So, you're saying that about 17 home Tests ago we produced a greeny? It wasn't to do with the amount of rain? It was a designated greeny? 17 Tests ago? Produced a greeny against one of the better greeny attacks going?

We are dastardly. We are so naughty.”

You've got a short memory and you’re contradicting yourself You wanted just one and you got it. Very Happy

There are other examples, not necessarily all from England. You've got to admit Henry's made a sage point.

by taipan Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:08

Henry wrote:
Brass Monkey wrote:
Henry wrote: but if England, South Africa, or Australia prepare a green pitch with plenty of life, it's "good for test cricket."

Name one. Name the last time we prepared a greeny?

Headingley 2010, Pakistan v Australia.

by taipan Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:11

Henry wrote:The way KP played in Ahmedabad against India's spinners would be the equivalent of Mahela backing away to Steyn and Morkel on a quick Joburg pitch because he couldn't handle the pace.

Who would get the most stick in that situation?

I think the point is that the pitch should help the quickies up front, and then the spinners later. To produce a pitch that only helps the spinners is wrong IMO.

by mirchy Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:20

taipan wrote:
I would go with the traditional. Something for the seamers on the first morning, and then becoming better for batting, but with still a bit there for the new ball. And then some spin on days 4 and 5

The Ahmedabad pitch did just that. The Indians batted the first two days and scored 500+. On day three the spinners came into their own and the batting was abysmal. Following on England (Cook/Prior) showed what could be done, if one put one's mind to it. Both, India's seamers and spinners got some purchase. Yes the wicket was slow, but it required a certain amount of craftsmanship. There were no demons in the pitch. It deceived the English though.

So what do you think, Taips? Was it a good or a bad pitch?

by The One Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:23

most of the pitches in india were relaid in the late 90s/early 2000s for more bounce

quite a few of them just became slower and lower instead (mohali anyone?). creating pitches which are alien to local conditions is not an exact science at all, better to stick to the traditional surfaces and just make sure they last the length of a test match

by taipan Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:26

mirchy wrote:
taipan wrote:
I would go with the traditional. Something for the seamers on the first morning, and then becoming better for batting, but with still a bit there for the new ball. And then some spin on days 4 and 5
The Ahmedabad pitch did just that. The Indians batted the first two days and scored 500+. On day three the spinners came into their own and the batting was abysmal. Following on England (Cook/Prior) showed what could be done, if one put one's mind to it. Both, India's seamers and spinners got some purchase. Yes the wicket was slow, but it required a certain amount of craftsmanship. There were no demons in the pitch. It deceived the English though.

So what do you think, Taips? Was it a good or a bad pitch?

Actually still in two minds about it. There didn't seem to much in it up front for the seamers but that cold have been crap bowling as well. Did the spinners get tired in the England second knock allowing runs to be scored?

by Brass Monkey Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:37

Henry wrote:All I'm saying is, what is a "good cricket pitch"? Is a turner a bad pitch? Is a seamer a bad pitch? I don't think so.

For me, a flat pitch is a bad pitch. Anything else is interesting. And it's not easy to prepare a pitch with pace and bounce. Look at Perth. They've been trying without success for 10 years to get the pace and bounce back into it, even though they have ideal weather conditions to do so. Also the West Indies pitches haven't had much life in them for a while. So what chance does Ahmedabad have?

A flat pitch is a bad pitch. The Ahmedabad was a bad pitch. India are producing plenty of bad pitches - which is what Dhoni is alluding to. It's a bit of a joke to cite either Perth or WI - if they want to produce spicy pitches they can do. It's simple.

by Brass Monkey Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:38

taipan wrote:
Um, you werent even playing?

Sorry, yes, so that bumps it up to about 21 Tests.

21 Tests since we purposefully produced a greeny.

by mirchy Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:39

Did the spinners get tired in the England second knock allowing runs to be scored?

Yeah, definitely the case. Just check out the number of overs bowled by Ohja. I'd have more than a sore finger, if I had had to bowl those.

by Brass Monkey Wed 21 Nov 2012, 13:43

mirchy wrote:
You've got a short memory and you’re contradicting yourself You wanted just one and you got it.

There are other examples, not necessarily all from England. You've got to admit Henry's made a sage point.

Unlike you, mirchy, I'm not such an unabashed nationalist that I feel it's a slight on me. We're 'fortunate' in England to have enough cloud cover to produce results even when the curators are being greedy enough to produce dead wickets. So, your first sentence is clutching at straws to say the least. 21 Tests, I make it. So it's hardly heavily regular enough to warrant a complaint.

If we didn't have the clouds and my captain was complaining - I'd agree vehemently about the state of our pitches.

by tricycle Wed 21 Nov 2012, 14:37

Yadav doubtful for the second test. Now to bank on Ishant Sharma.

by Guest Wed 21 Nov 2012, 18:52

It's not the spinning tracks that everyone dislikes, it's the runways. I don't have any problem with spinning tracks, in fact they are penalised far too often for me.

The ball should not have reached the peak of its bounce before it gets to the batsman. That last pitch was doing that far too often. Even off the fast bowlers sometimes. Slow, low pitches usually make for dull, battathon draws.

Of course, if your batsmen shit themselves while walking to the crease, then the pitch matters not...

by PeterCS Thu 22 Nov 2012, 00:14

But Ronnie's not even there?

by Brass Monkey Thu 22 Nov 2012, 12:09

"Broad in Mumbai Test scare - Dismal week continues as bowler misses final practice "

Yyyeeeeeeeeaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh!

by PeterCS Thu 22 Nov 2012, 12:21

England's only hope?

by Brass Monkey Thu 22 Nov 2012, 13:15

Come to think about it - No Broad = Brezzy Lad = FOCK THAT YOU FOCKING QUNTS

by tricycle Thu 22 Nov 2012, 13:30

Yadav now unlikely for the second test. Bad times

by Guest Thu 22 Nov 2012, 19:14

The bowling stocks are looking so marvellously deep and reassuringly consistent, these days.

Whoever comes in, you just know they consistently aren't going to take any wickets.

by PeterCS Thu 22 Nov 2012, 19:16

Brass Monkey wrote:Come to think about it - No Broad = Brezzy Lad = FOCK THAT YOU FOCKING QUNTS

You could have made it a Saffy triple with KONTS!

by Guest Thu 22 Nov 2012, 19:17

PeterCS wrote:
Brass Monkey wrote:Come to think about it - No Broad = Brezzy Lad = FOCK THAT YOU FOCKING QUNTS

You could have made it a Saffy triple with KONTS!

Ja, u kunt!

by PeterCS Thu 22 Nov 2012, 19:22

Klämmssøn wrote:The bowling stocks are looking so marvellously deep and reassuringly consistent, these days.

Whoever comes in, you just know they consistently aren't going to take any wickets.

It's strange that virtually all the England seamers have gone off the boil (or possibly to pot) at the same time. Two or three years ago, any of them coming into the team seemed able to do a good job. (Broad, Finn, Onions, Bresnan, you name it/him ...)

Perhaps it IS a sign that Flower's tenure is reaching a natural conclusion. AF seems to want another break from it all again, as well - perhaps a staleness, a flagging of energy, vision and application is spreading in all directions, up and down.

Maybe cricket coaches should be like politicians, selected for a five- or four-year term. (But unlike politics, the mandate only renewable if there really is nobody else plausible.)

by Basil Thu 22 Nov 2012, 19:38

Brass Monkey wrote:Come to think about it - No Broad = Brezzy Lad = FOCK THAT YOU FOCKING QUNTS

If Broad isn't fit - Bresnan will play end of. England won't go into a test with a tail of Swann, Anderson, Onions and Panesar

by PeterCS Thu 22 Nov 2012, 20:01

Are we all assuming Monster is going to play?

There was some humble pie eaten by the management over his non-selection first up. But from what I recall reading, suggestion also that Mumbai would suit seam better, so (the drift seemed to go) it wasn't obvious that Panesar would be in the team this time either. Maybe just a figleaf.

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