Pakistan v England, 2nd Test, Dubai, 22-26 October, 2015

Lindsay no.2 wrote:As several of you have sagely commented - our 5,6 and 7 are just not really up to the required standard. They contributed very little to this game in terms of their batting and until we get that sorted then these types of results will continue to occur.

Is there any scope for a different way of introducing batsmen into the England team? Lyth was touted as the best opening bat option from the county scene and thusly promoted to the test team. Whereupon he looked way out of his depth against test level new ball bowling. Could he (or a.n.other opener from county scene) be drafted in to the team to bat at 4, 5 or 6? Would that be a smaller step and adjustment to make? Gooch kicked off his test career as a middle order guy and ended up being pretty handy as a test opener. Our middle order lacks gumption and in Bairstow's case there are myriad technical flaws which are just plain scary - maybe a technician, in the form of an opener, could bring some backbone to the batting and maybe take a bit of the burden away from Cook and Root.

Or maybe not - roll on Jonny and co.

Lyth just isn't a particularly good batsman, IMHO. I don't think it would've made much difference where he batted in the order.

There are some FC batsmen around who have quality and potential that England should be taking a punt on, but the powers that be seem utterly seduced by stats and all things Yorkshire. It's meaningless that Jonny Bairstow scored 1200 runs last season when he's palpably a technical shitshower.

To my mind, Cook, Root and Bell are the only Test-standard batsmen in the current line-up. And, sadly, Ian Ronaldo's heart is in semi-retirement, even if his rodent body is still somewhat present.

England are going to have to take some pain in the next few years while they completely rebuild the batting, I'm afraid. Opener, number three, five, six and a keeper are all required. That's a major overhaul and a half.

If they can get a keeper into the top six (Steven Davies? Ben Duckett? Ben Foakes? Joe Clarke?) , maybe Stokes can settle in at seven, which looks a better fit for his blend of hit and missing.

But the bottom line is: IT'S F*CKED!!! EVERYTHING IS F*CKED!! NO HOPE. NO FUTURE. NO DIGGITY.

Well, you did beat Aus in the Ashes only 6 weeks ago, so it can't be all bad.

Dello wrote:

Lindsay no.2 wrote:As several of you have sagely commented - our 5,6 and 7 are just not really up to the required standard. They contributed very little to this game in terms of their batting and until we get that sorted then these types of results will continue to occur.

Is there any scope for a different way of introducing batsmen into the England team? Lyth was touted as the best opening bat option from the county scene and thusly promoted to the test team. Whereupon he looked way out of his depth against test level new ball bowling. Could he (or a.n.other opener from county scene) be drafted in to the team to bat at 4, 5 or 6? Would that be a smaller step and adjustment to make? Gooch kicked off his test career as a middle order guy and ended up being pretty handy as a test opener. Our middle order lacks gumption and in Bairstow's case there are myriad technical flaws which are just plain scary - maybe a technician, in the form of an opener, could bring some backbone to the batting and maybe take a bit of the burden away from Cook and Root.

Or maybe not - roll on Jonny and co.

Lyth just isn't a particularly good batsman, IMHO. I don't think it would've made much difference where he batted in the order.

There are some FC batsmen around who have quality and potential that England should be taking a punt on, but the powers that be seem utterly seduced by stats and all things Yorkshire. It's meaningless that Jonny Bairstow scored 1200 runs last season when he's palpably a technical shitshower.

To my mind, Cook, Root and Bell are the only Test-standard batsmen in the current line-up. And, sadly, Ian Ronaldo's heart is in semi-retirement, even if his rodent body is still somewhat present.  

England are going to have to take some pain in the next few years while they completely rebuild the batting, I'm afraid. Opener, number three, five, six and a keeper are all required. That's a major overhaul and a half.

If they can get a keeper into the top six (Steven Davies? Ben Duckett? Ben Foakes? Joe Clarke?) , maybe Stokes can settle in at seven, which looks a better fit for his blend of hit and missing.

But the bottom line is: IT'S F*CKED!!! EVERYTHING IS F*CKED!! NO HOPE. NO FUTURE. NO DIGGITY.

Well I'd take a punt on your man James Vince for the South Africa series. He had a pretty poor County season, but I reckon South African pitches will suit his 'Vaughan-esque' game.

I'd go with Steve Davies for the keeper. Ok, so he doesn't actually keep for Surrey anymore, but then Bairstow does't keep all the time either yet he's our reserve keeper. Davies is the most consistent batsman out of anyone who knows how to wear the gloves.

I'd pick Nick Compton as the opening batsman until someone under 25 starts to show signs of being ready. Maybe Bell-Drummond further down the track.

So for the first test against the Saffies, how about-

Cook(c)
Compton
Taylor
Root
Vince
Davies+
Stokes
Rashid
Broad
Wood
Anderson

The batting might collapse again. Who knows. But Bell and Bairstow are surely out of chances. It might even be time to suggest that after this series Barstow will never play tests for England again, regardless of County form.

Compton. Surely not.

Can't believe I'm advocating the inclusion of someone who has just turned 21 - it's wholly unlike me - and it'll seem like a parochial shout, but I'd be tempted to pick Ben Duckett. Left handed, nuggety, reasonable defensive technique, can score very quickly. You could plonk him at 6 with no qualms, let Stokes play a slightly more aggressive role at 7. He's the best I've seen of the next batch of keepers. Plus he plays in a dogshit batting line up, so he'll be used to digging the team out of trouble.

Brass Monkey wrote:Can't believe I'm advocating the inclusion of someone who has just turned 21 - it's wholly unlike me - and it'll seem like a parochial shout, but I'd be tempted to pick Ben Duckett. Left handed, nuggety, reasonable defensive technique, can score very quickly. You could plonk him at 6 with no qualms, let Stokes play a slightly more aggressive role at 7. He's the best I've seen of the next batch of keepers. Plus he plays in a dogshit batting line up, so he'll be used to digging the team out of trouble.

Do you seriously have a problem with the age?

If anything I would say England pick players when they are too old.

Brass Monkey wrote:Can't believe I'm advocating the inclusion of someone who has just turned 21 - it's wholly unlike me - and it'll seem like a parochial shout, but I'd be tempted to pick Ben Duckett. Left handed, nuggety, reasonable defensive technique, can score very quickly. You could plonk him at 6 with no qualms, let Stokes play a slightly more aggressive role at 7. He's the best I've seen of the next batch of keepers. Plus he plays in a dogshit batting line up, so he'll be used to digging the team out of trouble.

If it's a keeper you want, look no further than Ben Cox. James Foster reckoned he was one of the best young keepers he had seen. He's no more than a county 6 or 7, but he could always come in behind Rashid and Broad.

skully wrote:Well, you did beat Aus in the Ashes only 6 weeks ago, so it can't be all bad.

We love nothing better than a heroic loss, it gets the juices flowing, and it get's the post-count up.

taipan wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:Can't believe I'm advocating the inclusion of someone who has just turned 21 - it's wholly unlike me - and it'll seem like a parochial shout, but I'd be tempted to pick Ben Duckett. Left handed, nuggety, reasonable defensive technique, can score very quickly. You could plonk him at 6 with no qualms, let Stokes play a slightly more aggressive role at 7. He's the best I've seen of the next batch of keepers. Plus he plays in a dogshit batting line up, so he'll be used to digging the team out of trouble.

Do you seriously have a problem with the age?

If anything I would say England pick players when they are too old.

It's probably a personal thing - I just usually think that they haven't fully learned their craft and hence don't warrant selection at the highest level. The likes of Broad, Stokes and Root could've done with another year before selection.

Saying that, Duckett has played as much as Buttler had when picked. At least he got 5 tons last year at a S/R of 80, opening the batting. I think Buttler had one. So maybe I'm not so averse to it.

Basil wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:Can't believe I'm advocating the inclusion of someone who has just turned 21 - it's wholly unlike me - and it'll seem like a parochial shout, but I'd be tempted to pick Ben Duckett. Left handed, nuggety, reasonable defensive technique, can score very quickly. You could plonk him at 6 with no qualms, let Stokes play a slightly more aggressive role at 7. He's the best I've seen of the next batch of keepers. Plus he plays in a dogshit batting line up, so he'll be used to digging the team out of trouble.

If it's a keeper you want, look no further than Ben Cox. James Foster reckoned he was one of the best young keepers he had seen. He's no more than a county 6 or 7, but he could always come in behind Rashid and Broad.

We've already got a decent keeper who can't bat.

Brass Monkey wrote:

taipan wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:Can't believe I'm advocating the inclusion of someone who has just turned 21 - it's wholly unlike me - and it'll seem like a parochial shout, but I'd be tempted to pick Ben Duckett. Left handed, nuggety, reasonable defensive technique, can score very quickly. You could plonk him at 6 with no qualms, let Stokes play a slightly more aggressive role at 7. He's the best I've seen of the next batch of keepers. Plus he plays in a dogshit batting line up, so he'll be used to digging the team out of trouble.

Do you seriously have a problem with the age?

If anything I would say England pick players when they are too old.

It's probably a personal thing - I just usually think that they haven't fully learned their craft and hence don't warrant selection at the highest level. The likes of Broad, Stokes and Root could've done with another year before selection.

Saying that, Duckett has played as much as Buttler had when picked. At least he got 5 tons last year at a S/R of 80, opening the batting. I think Buttler had one. So maybe I'm not so averse to it.

Fair enough, maybe it's a culture thing. Kallis, Smith and AB all debuted at 21 or younger and they turned out okay.

Yet they're three ATGs. Maybe they had the definitive juice from the off.. Most need a bit more nurturing.

But would England have taken the gamble.

If we are talking keepers both Bouch and QDK debuted at 21. The. There are Steyn, Ntini and Morne.

I think we're better at blooding young players than we used to be - and we're certainly better at giving them a fair crack of the whip. Gooch was dropped after two tests and disappeared for three years.

Generally speaking - if you're not good enough by 25, you're not good enough.

taipan wrote:But would England have taken the gamble.

If we are talking keepers both Bouch and QDK debuted at 21. The. There are Steyn, Ntini and Morne.

Good point. As Basil says, I suppose we're better than we used to be.... it's just with Duckett, he's two seasons into his career - which I expect is a little too 'fruity' for the selectors.

In Australia, there has always been theory that it is good to wait three seasons before selecting batsmen in tests as many promising batsmen suffer from the "third season blues". It was felt that by the third season opposing teams had seen a bit of the player & were looking at technical weaknesses & if there were any problems, the player might struggle in that third season. It was a good sign if they were still performing well that season & if not then they would look at rectifying any issues & come through it a better player. If they couldn't overcome their problems, they would drop out.

Some well-known examples of "third season blues"
Les Joslin http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Players/1/1310/f_Batting_by_Season.html

Alan Shiell http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Players/16/16687/f_Batting_by_Season.html

Then there was Ian Davis who the test selectors decided was ready for test cricket in his first season. No need to test him thoroughly in the Sheffield Shield competition. Needless to say, he came from NSW.
http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Players/1/1418/f_Batting_by_Season.html

We probably don't need to worry about "third season blues" any more as we no longer have any promising young players. They just stink the place out from the start & finally work out how to play the game when they are old men in their thirties.

Just on this point, Steve Waugh has suggested that those who are blooded for oz this summer be given an extended run in the team rather than chopping and changing which can smack of desperation.

FWIW, my first Saffie up (as I said at the time) would have been Jason Roy. He has something about him.

Not sure how long they are going to keep dragging Hales around if they ain't gorna use him. But I have to say, he hasn't pressed his case.

Brass Monkey wrote:Can't believe I'm advocating the inclusion of someone who has just turned 21 - it's wholly unlike me - and it'll seem like a parochial shout, but I'd be tempted to pick Ben Duckett. Left handed, nuggety, reasonable defensive technique, can score very quickly. You could plonk him at 6 with no qualms, let Stokes play a slightly more aggressive role at 7. He's the best I've seen of the next batch of keepers. Plus he plays in a dogshit batting line up, so he'll be used to digging the team out of trouble.

When was the last time they took a punt on anyone from the second division, who hasn't first survived by the skin of his teeth worked his way up through all the Lions, Tigers, Bears, and Development Performance Squaddy things before getting picked for England? Our selectors have zero imagination, and Duckett is at least two years away from being picked, even if he clearly demonstrates in a private meeting with Choccy Whittaker that he is in fact the next Donald George Bradman.

Steve Davies is the safe bet- 29 years old, Played a bit for England in the past, piled on the runs for a few seasons now, not a wizard with the gloves, but solid enough......Andy Flower found something in him he didn't like, but maybe the Bayliss regime will give him another chance.

I thought he'd given up the gauntlets?

Does Adam Wheater score any runs in CC ?

Occasionally.

2015 record:

14, 7, 13, 15, 52, 111, 5*, 13, 49, 17, 50, 1, 14, 57, 25, 0, 7, 16

av: 27.

He had a good year for Perth last year ...and has already had a couple of 80's this year

He must be tough if he survived Whipps Cross.

Maybe he should qualify for Oz?