England v West Indies, 2nd Test, Trent Bridge, 25-29 May, 2012

Dello wrote:
All three are struggling to get the speedo over 80mph now. We have an attack of trundlers.

Are they pacing themselves? Will they be able to find that bit extra when SA come to town? Not sure.

Broad's had an injury plagued couple of years, Bresnan's had an elbow op which took longer than anticipated to get right and Jimmy looked seriously overbowled at the end of the Ashes and hasn't been given much of a break since.

If England win this Test - and the series - I'd view it as the ideal situation to rotate the seamers and give Finn, Onions and maybe Meaker a go in the dead rubber. What's the point in having a decent pool of bowlers if you're only going to use them when someone else's body explodes?

I really don't know what's going on with them but I'd be surprised if they were bowling within themselves. I don't mind really in the sense of I'm confident of their capabilities regardless of their speed. This following excerpt of the recent Zaltzman article makes more sense of what I was blithering about at the start of Day 1 about our attack (it also highlights how well WI have done):

"West Indies’ total runs in the match at Lord’s – the joint second-highest match total that England have conceded in their last 23 Tests, since Bangladesh scored 282 and 382, also at Lord’s, two years ago.

In this golden period for English bowlsmanship, the only time an opposing team has scored more against them than Darren Sammy’s team did at Lord’s was Sri Lanka, who totalled 606 for 13 last year, also at the Home of Cricket. In England’s previous 20 Tests, from December 2008 to May 2010, they had conceded more than 606 on 13 occasions.

It has been an extraordinary display of sustained excellence, illustrated by the fact that, since May 2010, all eight specialist bowlers who have played Tests for England have averaged under 27 (if we exclude Samit Patel from the list of specialist bowlers) (which does not seem entirely unfair)."

The reason I'm worried about their pace being down is probably the injury thing you've mentioned. Like they haven't been given enough time to recover, I'm concerned about burn out. I sort of see what you're saying about Jimmy, but in a sense he's had plenty of rest. 21 overs per innings (since the start of the Ashes) or about 23ish in 2012 isn't the most hideous of workloads.

Chivalry Augustus wrote:I've also decided to go full turn on Bresnan. He's the most under-rated player ever. Runs in hard and bowls straight and full. Simple strategy which looks really sh*t when it doesn't work - like Friday - but generally does the business. Hard to argue with a guy who can bat and bowl to Test standard consistently.

Trev? Are you at Gus' house? Forgot to change log-ins?

Bres in interview certainly noted the speed gun at 77-80mph, said he'd sacrificed speed for the swing.

I think the whole side is playing 3/4 rat power tbh. Speed is important and shouldn't be totally dismissed because you can get away with errors at 80mph whereas their normal speeds of 85-88mph just gives them that extra 10% imo.

We will need to be playing at Ashes 2010/11 intensity to beat the Saffers.

I'm not knocking Bressy lad, or Steven Finn either - neither of them have bad records ..... but can prove horribly expensive at times.

I think there have been occasions where tthey have beneffited from the huge improvement of Stuart Broad over the last few series, and in particular Jimmy A over the last 4 years or so.

There are times when the change bowlers benefit from Anderson's early spells, where the batsmen are happy just to see him out of the attack, and chance their arm when what in comparison seems a friendly pie-chucker starts bowling. Just think back to Adelaide ..... he had Ponting, Hussey et al prodding around like schoolboys, yet Finn lands the 6-fer.

It also helps of course, that JA is one of the best fielders we've had for many years. He doesn't spill many catches off other bowlers. Unfortunately he isn't always so fortunate when he induces the edge. It'd be nice to see him clean the tail out in the morning - so far this series I don't think his figures do true justice to the way he's actually bowled.

Hey Growler, i'll bow down and kiss Jimmys feet just for you. Seem to remember a few arguments between us about him

I lost faith in a test in NZ during when Tim Southee was punting Monty for sixes at will and he was bowling like a moron at the tail. Glad to have been wrong...

cheers JK.

Aye, we did have some spats - and I argued with others too.

I never denied he could bowl some complete pap at times ...... but my argument was always that he was never going to progress with an odd game now and again when he was the kind of bowler who needed regular work in the middle.

Oh well, Windies reverting to type of the last decade. One promising innings all for nought with a second innings capitulation.

Indeed. Bresnan's efforts yesterday with both bat and ball might have actually secured his place in the side for the rest of the summer, barring injury, despite the doubts of forummers including yours truly. Assuming an easy victory today Bairstow will probably feature in an unchanged side at Edgbaston as well as in the ODI sides against both the Windies and Australia.

However it is clear that the Windies have worked his weakness out and their method of bowling short will be copied by sides more adept at it. He will come under close scrutiny to see if he makes runs in the ODIs, especially against Australia. If he is not included against South Africa given the batting abilities of Prior, Bresnan, Broad & Swann there is always the option of not replacing him by a regular batsman but by another bowler to give England a five-man attack, a proposition currently being urged on the West Indies (at least from the Sky Commentary Box). This need not be an extra spinner but could well be someone like Finn or Onions who would come in mighty useful at, say, Headingley where we play South Africa in the 2nd Test.

God, how rubbish are Barath, Powell and Edwards??

skully wrote:God, how rubbish are Barath, Powell and Edwards??

Barath did reasonably well at Lords, Powell was promising in the Windies' 1st innings here, Edwards has the 'flu and may be discarded for Edgbaston. All of them lack the experience to compete at the top level. The Windies remind me of the Bangas currently, promising players who show some ability but lack the wherewithal to sustain the type of effort required to defeat a Test side. Whether they will follow the Bangas' route of chopping and changing their side so much and so often that they never become anything else but "promising" remains to be seen.

skully wrote:God, how rubbish are Barath, Powell and Edwards??

Arguably the worst top order the Windies have ever fielded; surely if not they would come close to being.

Growler wrote:I'm not knocking Bressy lad, or Steven Finn either - neither of them have bad records ..... but can prove horribly expensive at times.

I think there have been occasions where tthey have beneffited from the huge improvement of Stuart Broad over the last few series, and in particular Jimmy A over the last 4 years or so.

There are times when the change bowlers benefit from Anderson's early spells, where the batsmen are happy just to see him out of the attack, and chance their arm when what in comparison seems a friendly pie-chucker starts bowling. Just think back to Adelaide ..... he had Ponting, Hussey et al prodding around like schoolboys, yet Finn lands the 6-fer.

It also helps of course, that JA is one of the best fielders we've had for many years. He doesn't spill many catches off other bowlers. Unfortunately he isn't always so fortunate when he induces the edge. It'd be nice to see him clean the tail out in the morning - so far this series I don't think his figures do true justice to the way he's actually bowled.

In this series though he is lucky enough to get first go at the Windian top order. They would be some of the cheapest wickets going around.

Allan D wrote:

skully wrote:God, how rubbish are Barath, Powell and Edwards??

Barath did reasonably well at Lords, Powell was promising in the Windies' 1st innings here, Edwards has the 'flu and may be discarded for Edgbaston. All of them lack the experience to compete at the top level. The Windies remind me of the Bangas currently, promising players who show some ability but lack the wherewithal to sustain the type of effort required to defeat a Test side. Whether they will follow the Bangas' route of chopping and changing their side so much and so often that they never become anything else but "promising" remains to be seen.

It's too much inexperience at once and to be fair to Edwards he was averaging 50 before this series. but having 4 players figuring out test cricket at once is a recipe for disaster. In a perfect world Gayle and Sarwan should come in and Barath, Powell, Brathwaite and Edwards should fight it out for the next opening slot and the others go back to regional cricket. So ideally our batting lineup should be

Gayle
Edwards(Not totally ready to throw him away yet after his first bad series and he is an opener)
Sarwan
Bravo
Chanderpaul
Samuels

last night was the most disappointing effort in recent years from the Windies

poor bowling and spineless batting against pretty ordinairy opposition

kkf wrote:It's too much inexperience at once and to be fair to Edwards he was averaging 50 before this series. but having 4 players figuring out test cricket at once is a recipe for disaster. In a perfect world Gayle and Sarwan should come in and Barath, Powell, Brathwaite and Edwards should fight it out for the next opening slot and the others go back to regional cricket. So ideally our batting lineup should be

Gayle
Edwards(Not totally ready to throw him away yet after his first bad series and he is an opener)
Sarwan
Bravo
Chanderpaul
Samuels

Where would Brendan Nash fit in, if at all?

...in the 2nd Qld XI

JKLever wrote:Bres in interview certainly noted the speed gun at 77-80mph, said he'd sacrificed speed for the swing.

I think the whole side is playing 3/4 rat power tbh. Speed is important and shouldn't be totally dismissed because you can get away with errors at 80mph whereas their normal speeds of 85-88mph just gives them that extra 10% imo.

We will need to be playing at Ashes 2010/11 intensity to beat the Saffers.

Really? I would have thought he more speed, the more swing.

horace wrote:...in the 2nd Qld XI

Still better than what we've seen in this tour.

Seriously though, he has been scoring decent runs in the Counties.

phurt...so has Hughes, jo root and murray goodwin

tricycle wrote:

kkf wrote:It's too much inexperience at once and to be fair to Edwards he was averaging 50 before this series. but having 4 players figuring out test cricket at once is a recipe for disaster. In a perfect world Gayle and Sarwan should come in and Barath, Powell, Brathwaite and Edwards should fight it out for the next opening slot and the others go back to regional cricket. So ideally our batting lineup should be

Gayle
Edwards(Not totally ready to throw him away yet after his first bad series and he is an opener)
Sarwan
Bravo
Chanderpaul
Samuels

Where would Brendan Nash fit in, if at all?

He would fight for Samuels' spot

Cheers. It's not happening on current form then.

Allan D wrote:Assuming an easy victory today Bairstow will probably feature in an unchanged side at Edgbaston as well as in the ODI sides against both the Windies and Australia.

However it is clear that the Windies have worked his weakness out and their method of bowling short will be copied by sides more adept at it. He will come under close scrutiny to see if he makes runs in the ODIs, especially against Australia. If he is not included against South Africa given the batting abilities of Prior, Bresnan, Broad & Swann there is always the option of not replacing him by a regular batsman but by another bowler to give England a five-man attack, a proposition currently being urged on the West Indies (at least from the Sky Commentary Box). This need not be an extra spinner but could well be someone like Finn or Onions who would come in mighty useful at, say, Headingley where we play South Africa in the 2nd Test.

The sooner Stokes gets bowling again, the sooner England can get his Test career going. Ss far as I'm concerned, he's the real talent in the young up and coming batsmen. Plenty to learn, of course, but he should be England's next long-term project. Pick him and stick with him.

He'll balace the side lovely with his improving RMF bowling.

Oh dear. Just when you thought the Windies were in with a chance. 61/6

Dello wrote:

Allan D wrote:Assuming an easy victory today Bairstow will probably feature in an unchanged side at Edgbaston as well as in the ODI sides against both the Windies and Australia.

However it is clear that the Windies have worked his weakness out and their method of bowling short will be copied by sides more adept at it. He will come under close scrutiny to see if he makes runs in the ODIs, especially against Australia. If he is not included against South Africa given the batting abilities of Prior, Bresnan, Broad & Swann there is always the option of not replacing him by a regular batsman but by another bowler to give England a five-man attack, a proposition currently being urged on the West Indies (at least from the Sky Commentary Box). This need not be an extra spinner but could well be someone like Finn or Onions who would come in mighty useful at, say, Headingley where we play South Africa in the 2nd Test.

The sooner Stokes gets bowling again, the sooner England can get his Test career going. Ss far as I'm concerned, he's the real talent in the young up and coming batsmen. Plenty to learn, of course, but he should be England's next long-term project. Pick him and stick with him.

He'll balace the side lovely with his improving RMF bowling.

You have something going with his mum?

horace wrote:last night was the most disappointing effort in recent years from the Windies

poor bowling and spineless batting against pretty ordinairy opposition

Yeah, I couldn't agree more .... akin to the Bangles, if some on here are to believed!!
And this Strauss fella ... ... wot a pile o' crap he is in everything he does ... innit ...

Oh well .... yet another win looming up under a shite skipper .... yawns ..... zzzzzzz.